RealGM

I would easily put him in that top tier of bird, magic, maybe nash, lebron, mj. Like if i had to rank tiers, maybe mj and lebron and magic are above everybody else, then another tier with bird, nash, curry, west, oscar, then another one with shaq kareem kobe cp3, dirk, harden, durant, probably doncic.
Jokic the only ones I'm comfortable putting above him are lebron and mj, and I would probably put magic, probably curry above him. but yeah, I'd have him above bird, nash and the other guys. so yeah, to me jokic is a borderline top 5 offensive players ever. His fluidity, his combination of shooting, post up, touch, passing and iq is just off the charts. Like, he's unplayable. He will post you up, you double him he hits the pass, he makes crazy shots. Bro, he's a machine. It's like he can't have a bad game.

He might be top 10.

He is top 10 for sure, top 5 he has a good argument. Its honestly really hard to rank a top 5 offense only.

I think we might have to think about peak Jokic... dude is seriously having a super monster season. And it all seems effortless

In terms of unsolvability I think he has an argument for being the best we’ve seen.

I think perimeter players like Bron and Jordan have an advantage by the simple fact that they have the ball more though.

The more you see him go against playoff defenses the easier it is to rank him. So as of now it's a bit hard to say for sure imo. A few playoff series(in conjunction with the last 3 regular seasons) isn't that much of a sample. It's like why hardly anyone puts Bernard King in a top 10 scorer list.

If these playoffs keep going the way they are it wouldn’t be crazy to put him as the GOAT offensive peak. Dude’s just a walking 30/20/10 guy its kind of crazy.

Let's wait at least until the end of the post-season, but I'll say this:

People are reluctant to crown the latest best player as the GOAT for understandable reasons, but the modern NBA is not normal circumstances.

Simply put, the change from the 1990s until now is the biggest change in the game since the arrival of the big man in the '40s, and so to some degree, asking whether Jokic can be better at offense than anyone in history is a bit like asking whether George Mikan can really be better than (the 6'1") Dutch Dehnert.

We can certainly argue that someone like Magic would be even better today and that would give him the nod over Jokic, but quite literally when asking whether it makes more sense to play like Magic or play like Jokic in terms of who they were trying to pass the ball to, it's not even a question.

Of course, there's also longevity to consider, and in a career-length type analysis, I'm not saying Jokic has done enough yet to even have consideration.

Doctor MJ wrote:
Simply put, the change from the 1990s until now is the biggest change in the game since the arrival of the big man in the '40s, and so to some degree, asking whether Jokic can be better at offense than anyone in history is a bit like asking whether George Mikan can really be better than (the 6'1") Dutch Dehnert.

Erm... What? Where does that analogy even come from?

Top 5 for peak is a safe opinion at this point.

70sFan wrote:Top 5 for peak is a safe opinion at this point.

Along with who?

No-more-rings wrote:

70sFan wrote:Top 5 for peak is a safe opinion at this point.

Along with who?

Magic, James, Jordan and one of Curry/Nash/Oscar.

Jaivl wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Simply put, the change from the 1990s until now is the biggest change in the game since the arrival of the big man in the '40s, and so to some degree, asking whether Jokic can be better at offense than anyone in history is a bit like asking whether George Mikan can really be better than (the 6'1") Dutch Dehnert.

Erm... What? Where does that analogy even come from?

Dutch Dehnert was arguably the best player in the 1920s.

I'm saying that the leap from the 1990s to the present is so massive that it's the biggest shift in the sport since the arrival of the big man in the 40s.

Does my statement make sense now? If not, can you ask a more specific question?

Best offensive player ever.

How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated:

Consider that in the past 240 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.5/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.5/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 3 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 240 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .370 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 



Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

Celtic Koala wrote:Jokic is the best player in the best NBA league we have ever seen (the amount of talent in the league is vastly superior to that of the 90's). He is carrying what would be a lottery team to the finals with the most consistent elite performance that I have ever seen in my life (if he wins a ring this year he would have without a doubt the greatest playoff performance in history).

In my book he is the best player of all time as the skill gap between the modern NBA and the 90's or early 2000's is enormous and he is the best player in the league by far.

Greatness is different though, and he misses some accolades to claim that spot (some rings and FMVP titles). Even then, if he is a life longer at a small market team like Denver and he manages to win 2 or 3 rings, his accomplishments would be vastly superior to those of players like Lebron that spent all their career chasing rings and forming super teams.

This guy nailed it. The skill level today is drastically higher than the 1980's/1990's.

Probably #1. The point guard like passing impact on top of all-time scoring is something not even peak Bron can match. He's a beast on the offensive boards too.

Easily top-10 and probably top-5.

Doctor MJ wrote:Let's wait at least until the end of the post-season, but I'll say this:

People are reluctant to crown the latest best player as the GOAT for understandable reasons, but the modern NBA is not normal circumstances.

Simply put, the change from the 1990s until now is the biggest change in the game since the arrival of the big man in the '40s, and so to some degree, asking whether Jokic can be better at offense than anyone in history is a bit like asking whether George Mikan can really be better than (the 6'1") Dutch Dehnert.

We can certainly argue that someone like Magic would be even better today and that would give him the nod over Jokic, but quite literally when asking whether it makes more sense to play like Magic or play like Jokic in terms of who they were trying to pass the ball to, it's not even a question.

Of course, there's also longevity to consider, and in a career-length type analysis, I'm not saying Jokic has done enough yet to even have consideration.

The pace of change in basketball was fairly normal in the aughts but it accelerated significantly post-2015. And it isn't unreasonable to regard the pace of change over the last seven years as the most significant since the post-shot clock change. The biggest factor, IMO, was long-range shooting turned out to be a much more teachable skill than people realized.

The thing I struggle with is evaluating which players from the past would be able to develop a 3 point game in the modern era. I tend to use FT shooting/video review in my evaluation. As an example I'm 100% certain a 18 yr old KG would have a 3 point game today. And I'm 100% certain Shaq would not. I've watched a lot of Ewing footage. In his best days he was a 75% ft shooter who had a very strong long mid-range game. His form looked solid. Given today's much better shooting coaches and emphasis on developing shooting, could he have a 3 ball. I think so but I'm not certain.

But I would say the style of play really is contingent on the 3 point line staying where it is and real zones being illegal in the NBA. If the 3 point line moves back or normal zones were allowed in the NBA some of the importance of 3 point shooting will decline. And this era could end up regarded as a bit of an anomaly.

Even if that happens though basketball fans should recognize this is a super young sport. As a comparison the National League was founded in 1876. In baseball terms, post-shot clock basketball in its evolution is where baseball was in the mid 40s. We should expect massive change and it may well en up that the players pre-2015 end up regarded the way baseball regards the deadball players or NBA fans currently regard the Miken era players.

Hard to tell its way too easy to score in this easy ass era of taking 5 steps and blatant carries. But he and Curry are the best offensive players of this era.

Edit: I guess also James though James' prime was mostly in the prior era.

kendogg wrote:Hard to tell its way too easy to score in this easy ass era of taking 5 steps and blatant carries. But he and Curry are the best offensive players of this era.

Carries and taking steps hardly benefits Jokic's playstyle. If anything the fact that he's still ahead while having a relatively stationary style suggest that he is even that much more dominant.

iggymcfrack wrote:Probably #1. The point guard like passing impact on top of all-time scoring is something not even peak Bron can match. He's a beast on the offensive boards too.

His weakness relative to the very best(magic, lebron, nash, oscar) is ball-handling(talking era-relative)