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What's your list? Who beats him or who does he beat?

This is taking into account only Knick tenure

You are asking if this guy is Top 5?

Minutes: 17th
Points: 7th
Assists: 24th
Rebounds: 19th

Sad to say it's close.

Ewing, Frazier and Reed are an easy Top 3. Then you have Monroe, Houston, DeBusschere and Oakley who I consider in the next tier.

He's clearly below Reed, Frazier, DeBusschere and Ewing. Then he could compete for the 5th spot.

Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

70sFan wrote:He's clearly below Reed, Frazier, DeBusschere and Ewing. Then he could compete for the 5th spot.

If Brunson is a Knick for the foreseeable long term, hard to not see him being in the fifth spot when his career is said and done.

MiamiBulls wrote:Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

Dave vs Melo is pretty much asking do you prefer defense or offense

Frazier, Reed and Ewing - no brainers

King - highest peak, but half the longevity
Oakley - great longevity, low peak
DeBusschere - high impact in a Sheed way on 2x champion
Gallatin - better than Melo for his era on multiple game 7 finals teams, but weaker non shotclock competition.
Guerin - Points/winning ratio seems pretty similar to Melo, but in the 60s.
Sears - eye popping TS/win shares for the 50s didn't translate the most to success.

1. Walt Frazier
2. Patrick Ewing
3. Willis Reed
4. Dave DeBusschere
5. Harry Gallatin

Gallatin makes it over him cause his longevity was pretty good at 9 years vs 6 for Melo.

MiamiBulls wrote:Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

His efficiency was lower in part cause he was taking long range jumpshots, this spacing would have had some positive value that isn't captured in TS. Still not an amazing offensive player but maybe good enough when added to being DPOY level.

MiamiBulls wrote:Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

Yes, he was good. He was great. The trade for Debusschere put the Knicks over the top of the competition in 1969, and from that point, only Bill Russell or injury could stop them.

He was basically the era’s Draymond Green as far as being an elite and versatile defender at PF who also passed well, spread the floor, and could play a perimeter game that complimented other great teammates.

I would for sure take Dave’s NYK career over Melo’s. One trade completed the core of a two-time champ; the other trade gutted an enjoyable, hard-working young core and quite frankly set us back a bit.

I’d take Bernard King over Melo, as King was better at Melo’s specialty. Melo is left competing with Allan Houston and Earl Monroe, which is still very good.

I’m not trying to diminish Melo here. He was a tremendously skilled scorer and a major superstar in terms of drawing power, hype, popularity. And that stuff does matter. But he didn’t spend a whole lot of time here, and when he was here, the team didn’t do much. So I can’t put him over guys who contributed in more meaningful ways.

MiamiBulls wrote:Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

Yes, he was good. Extremely good in fact.

Where did he rank for the Knicks top 5 peak seasons? Did he make the cut over DeBusschere?

I think a starting point would be to go to bkref to their Knick franchise index and see where Melo's picture pops up.

Going there...it doesn't.

Win Share leaders in Knick history who are listed:

Ewing
Frazier
Reed
Gallatin
Oakley
Braun
Cartwright
Sears
Guerin
Houston
Starks
Monroe

In making a history of the Knicks, all of these guys would arguably be more important to the tale than Melo.

Colbinii wrote:You are asking if this guy is Top 5?

Minutes: 17th
Points: 7th
Assists: 24th
Rebounds: 19th

Sad to say it's close.

Ewing, Frazier and Reed are an easy Top 3. Then you have Monroe, Houston, DeBusschere and Oakley who I consider in the next tier.

For a guy known almost exclusively as a scorer to not be in the top five in points... I would have to say a hard "no."

That said, I believe that franchise-history player rankings should be confined exclusively to the fans of the team. They're the ones who really know. I can rank Rockets players, but for any other team I wouldn't expect my opinion to hold an ounce of weight. If knowledgeable, long-time Knicks fans were to agree on Melo as top five, I'd be in no position to contradict them.

Grinditout wrote:What's your list? Who beats him or who does he beat?

This is taking into account only Knick tenure

Knicks list of best players is extremely disappointing given that they are a foundational franchise located in the biggest, richest city in the country. Sad to say he might be. Ewing, Frasier and Reed had better careers in NY. But after that I can't dismiss Melo.

Doctor MJ wrote:I think a starting point would be to go to bkref to their Knick franchise index and see where Melo's picture pops up.

Going there...it doesn't.

Win Share leaders in Knick history who are listed:

Ewing
Frazier
Reed
Gallatin
Oakley
Braun
Cartwright
Sears
Guerin
Houston
Starks
Monroe

In making a history of the Knicks, all of these guys would arguably be more important to the tale than Melo.

In terms of story, Camby could be ahead.

scrabbarista wrote:

Colbinii wrote:You are asking if this guy is Top 5?

Minutes: 17th
Points: 7th
Assists: 24th
Rebounds: 19th

Sad to say it's close.

Ewing, Frazier and Reed are an easy Top 3. Then you have Monroe, Houston, DeBusschere and Oakley who I consider in the next tier.

For a guy known almost exclusively as a scorer to not be in the top five in points... I would have to say a hard "no."

That said, I believe that franchise-history player rankings should be confined exclusively to the fans of the team. They're the ones who really know. I can rank Rockets players, but for any other team I wouldn't expect my opinion to hold an ounce of weight. If knowledgeable, long-time Knicks fans were to agree on Melo as top five, I'd be in no position to contradict them.

You could be a Knicks fan all of your life and never have seen Patrick Ewing play. I don't think having a Knicks jersey is a great argument or credential.

Colbinii wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:I think a starting point would be to go to bkref to their Knick franchise index and see where Melo's picture pops up.

Going there...it doesn't.

Win Share leaders in Knick history who are listed:

Ewing
Frazier
Reed
Gallatin
Oakley
Braun
Cartwright
Sears
Guerin
Houston
Starks
Monroe

In making a history of the Knicks, all of these guys would arguably be more important to the tale than Melo.

In terms of story, Camby could be ahead.

Nah, if you're thinking in terms of narrative and affection he generates from Knicks fans Camby wouldn't make the list. When I think of Knicks from those years (99-02), the name that comes to mind is Spree, despite understanding his very deep flaws as a player. I don't think most Knicks fans would disagree when it comes to the narrative.

Colbinii wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:I think a starting point would be to go to bkref to their Knick franchise index and see where Melo's picture pops up.

Going there...it doesn't.

Win Share leaders in Knick history who are listed:

Ewing
Frazier
Reed
Gallatin
Oakley
Braun
Cartwright
Sears
Guerin
Houston
Starks
Monroe

In making a history of the Knicks, all of these guys would arguably be more important to the tale than Melo.

In terms of story, Camby could be ahead.

Yup, as well as Clifton, DeBusschere, Barnett, and some others.

Colbinii wrote:
Sad to say it's close.

.

It is sad. Knicks are basically what the Cubs are to baseball. An enormously popular team in a major city that rarely does anything and has only had a few periods of relevance.

Miami's playoff success this year has had me thinking about one of the pivotal moments in Knicks history, Riley leaving for an expansion team.

The table below show 96 to 2022, playoff success. It doesn't include this year. Miami has won 30 series over this span. Knicks have won 9. Mind you, Miami never won a playoff series before Riley showed up. They've been the 3rd most successful playoff team since Riley arrived

Before Riley in NY, the Knicks had won 5 series over the previous 17 seasons. Riley shows up changes the team identity and they win 7 series over 4 years and nearly win a title. Most of the knicks playoff success from 96-2022 came in the JVG in which Riley deserves some credit. And then after that institutional knowledge was lost and NY has been maybe the worst franchise this century.

I really believe if he had stayed in NY, the knicks would have enjoyed considerable more success, likely won titles and there is a real shot NY becomes Lakers-East.

Just sad how little NY has accomplished historically and over the last 28 years. And when you look at Miami's success you have to think NY could have really gone another way.

Grinditout wrote:

MiamiBulls wrote:Mentioning Dave DeBusschere over Melo; was DeBusschere any good? His TS% was below the league average in every single season of his entire NBA career.

Dave vs Melo is pretty much asking do you prefer defense or offense

dave's defense was worth more than melo's offense in their respective time period. Knicks went form +4 to +8 srs post-dave in 1969 and then went +8.42 the next year en route to a title. (keep in mind that 4 points of improvement in the 60's was worth significantly more than it was in later periods).

There might be a time-machine case to be made, but era-relative goes to dave pretty easily