RealGM

Topic.

Unrealistic hypothetical given seeding, etc, but say the playoffs play out exactly as they did in real life. Same performances, same matchups, same rosters, same winners/losers, same injuries, etc.

Who are your top 10 all-time?

No order.

Jordan
Shaq
Kareem
Russell
Chamberlain
West
Lebron
Duncan
Olajuwon
Bird

MJ
Kareem/LeBron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Magic/Steph
Wilt
West/Bird

Which is extremely close to my regular top 10 but just Hakeem, Shaq and West get a slight bump as does MJ.

LeBron
Russell
Duncan
Kareem
Jordan
Magic
Curry
Bird
West
Kobe

No Order

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Kareem
7. Duncan
8. Magic
9. Wilt
10. Kobe

Dirk and West next up.

James
Jordan
Russell
Abdul-Jabbar
Olajuwon
Duncan
Johnson
O’Neal
Bryant
Chamberlain

HM: West Bird Curry

More or less similar to my top 13 anyways as I’m big into how much a championship window a player provides (eg. weight on prime quality and playoff translation), but some
minor modification(s).

Same as my regular top 10, though I think West's rank goes up dramatically.

rk2023 wrote:James
Jordan
Russell
Abdul-Jabbar
Olajuwon
Duncan
Johnson
O’Neal
Bryant
Chamberlain

HM: West Bird Curry

More or less similar to my top 13 anyways as I’m big into how much a championship window a player provides (eg. weight on prime quality and playoff translation), but some
minor modification(s).

russ disrespect craazzzy

didn he beat superteams with less help than every1 else

bro said "championship window" n then went and put ppl over the guy who always wins coz ppg

1. Jordan
2. Russ
3. Bron
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Bird
7. Curry
8. Magic
9. Duncan
10. Kareem

It's pretty much the standard top 10; if you were going to drop someone out if would probably be Bird and if you were going to move someone up it would probably be West or Kobe, but I'm not really seeing a lot of flex here.

Dirk and West have to be in my top 10 here I’d think. Presumably KG and Wilt drop out. Can see the argument for KD but the top 10 is crowded.

ShaqAttac wrote:

rk2023 wrote:James
Jordan
Russell
Abdul-Jabbar
Olajuwon
Duncan
Johnson
O’Neal
Bryant
Chamberlain

HM: West Bird Curry

More or less similar to my top 13 anyways as I’m big into how much a championship window a player provides (eg. weight on prime quality and playoff translation), but some
minor modification(s).

russ disrespect craazzzy

didn he beat superteams with less help than every1 else

bro said "championship window" n then went and put ppl over the guy who always wins coz ppg

I think alot of it is just plain ignorance. Here were the counter-arguments offered against Russell in a thread specifically asking for era-relative counter-cases against a year people insist is too far removed from Russell's peak to warrant consideration:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2289803

1. 48 to 34 wins isn't a historic dropoff and it's not a "virtually identical roster" when the Celtics also lost Sam Jones along with Russell. Jones was down to 26-29 mpg by his final season but he was still their second highest postseason scorer.

-> Sam Jones is a dramatically less efficient scorer than the 4th highest scorer on an average offense, is being treated like a substantial loss(which apparently outweighs hondo getting better)
-> Raw srs comparison when championship thresholds were dramatically lower(in a league where you go several seasons with maybe 2 +4 non-russell srs opponents, teams like the Bullets, the Lakers and the Knicks are dramatically more formidable than the likes of the 90 pistons, the 89 cavs, and 2000 Portland even if their srs is lower)

If you want to go strictly by year, #1, #2, and #4 were all knocked out en-route to a title with a team that is 35-win(3-5 that year) the next year with the same roster(potentially better actually). If you want to go by era(acknowledging that a team like the 2017 warriors can actually be more difficult than a team like the 2015 warriors), and utilize surrounding years as a reference, 1969 was an outlier year for the era where there were a bunch of +4 teams(in other stretches there'd be 1 in 2 years) and a +4 team that was really a +8 team once they got their playoff rotation set.

The Celtics faced all the toughest teams of that season to win an 11th championship in 13 years. Beating the Bullets, the Knicks and the Lakers(4-1, 4-2, and 4-3) is the 60's equivalent of beating the 2018 Warriors, a juiced variant of the 13 spurs, and a juiced variant of 10's OKC en route to a title. In the regular season the Celtics were marginally behind the outlier-srs Knicks(compare to say the 90 Bulls with a significantly better cast having half the srs of 4 teams, and ranking 9th overall) and then they elevated significantly in the playoffs

(13 spurs -> wins title next year, suped because they're a bigger outlier for the era in terms of srs(much bigger if you use their final roster), (12 thunder, push "14 spurs" to 7 soon after outlier regular season of their own, suped coz again, bigger outlier), (18 warriors, 2nd best player of the era joins 4th best player who led a team that was "best ever" pre-injury, coaching issues hinder)

People unironically arguing "russell was just wes unseld" because he did not have the offensive portfolio of a modern great is wild. What Russell did as a retiree player-coach has not been replicated by anyone, not shaq, not jordan, not lebron. Maaaybe you can some case for 2016(weaker competition though) or 72?*(kareem goes off as his bucks outscore a all-time team despite his best teammate being hobbled), but off course jabbar is actually 4th here so

I'm guessing people are just used to lebron or jordan being number 1 and 2, because there is no real reason for someone using "championship likelihood" as rationale to be marking up players losing to the orlando magic or scrapping buzzer-beater wins over the injury-punked 89 Cavs as similar era-relative accomplishments to what Russell managed in 1969( nvm the ramifications if you think he was past his prime)

ceiling raiser wrote:Topic.

Unrealistic hypothetical given seeding, etc, but say the playoffs play out exactly as they did in real life. Same performances, same matchups, same rosters, same winners/losers, same injuries, etc.

Who are your top 10 all-time?

Going to go era-relative for simplicity. Am also going to use peak/prime

1. Russell
(gap)
T-2. Lebron/Kareem
T-3. Hakeem
5. Duncan/Jordan/Wilt
8. Magic/Oscar/Shaq/KG/West

Hakeem benefits as he was probably the best playoff-performer of his period. I had half a mind to lower Kareem but I have to rethink my evaluation of 1972 and 1971 with oscar's injury in mind not to mention 1977 probably being the most "perfect" playoff run. Obviously some extrapolation is required for Garnett. Wade's case gets stronger too.

Colbinii wrote:LeBron
Russell
Duncan
Kareem
Jordan
Magic
Curry
Bird
West
Kobe

No Order

Kobe over Shaq and KG is interesting

I’m a pretty big longevity guy, though that needs to be more era adjusted here. I generally have less rs to po change than most I’ve found.

So largely longevity based I have KG/Hakeem (sometimes Oscar) fall out of my top 10 and Kobe/West join. KG also had a lot of his PO career in his late prime, so that doesn’t help him here.

LeBron
Russell
Duncan
KAJ
Wilt
MJ
Magic
Shaq
West
Kobe

Would be my first stab at an order, but not a lot of thought there.

MJ
Russell
Kobe
Kareem
Magic
Lebron
Shaq
TD
Curry
Hakeem

Alright, since everyone posts the list, I will try to do my own one:

Tier 1: Bill Russell
Tier 2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, LeBron James
Tier 3: Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan
Tier 4: Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

HM: Oscar, Curry, Kobe, Bird, KG

70sFan wrote:Alright, since everyone posts the list, I will try to do my own one:

Tier 1: Bill Russell
Tier 2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, LeBron James
Tier 3: Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan
Tier 4: Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

HM: Oscar, Curry, Kobe, Bird, KG

You think Tim and Hakeem were better than Chamberlain in general?

HeartBreakKid wrote:

70sFan wrote:Alright, since everyone posts the list, I will try to do my own one:

Tier 1: Bill Russell
Tier 2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, LeBron James
Tier 3: Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan
Tier 4: Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

HM: Oscar, Curry, Kobe, Bird, KG

You think Tim and Hakeem were better than Chamberlain in general?

No, I have them in the same tier. I think Wilt was slightly less consistent though. Hakeem and Duncan didn't have comparable underperformance to 1969 finals on their resume for example.

70sFan wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

70sFan wrote:Alright, since everyone posts the list, I will try to do my own one:

Tier 1: Bill Russell
Tier 2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, LeBron James
Tier 3: Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan
Tier 4: Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal

HM: Oscar, Curry, Kobe, Bird, KG

You think Tim and Hakeem were better than Chamberlain in general?

No, I have them in the same tier. I think Wilt was slightly less consistent though. Hakeem and Duncan didn't have comparable underperformance to 1969 finals on their resume for example.

Eh, Duncan had quite a few underperformances. If we're talking playoffs, you're basically putting both TD and Hakeem that high based on 03 & 94, because the others below were better throughout their careers in the post-season.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

70sFan wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
You think Tim and Hakeem were better than Chamberlain in general?

No, I have them in the same tier. I think Wilt was slightly less consistent though. Hakeem and Duncan didn't have comparable underperformance to 1969 finals on their resume for example.

Eh, Duncan had quite a few underperformances. If we're talking playoffs, you're basically putting both TD and Hakeem that high based on 03 & 94, because the others below were better throughout their careers in the post-season.

86, 88, 93, 95, 99, 02, 05, and 07 didn't happen i guess? Both have a strong argument as the best postseason performers of the decade they played in