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Who would you rather build around in their prime?

Jokic, no contest for me.

Moses was very good, and perhaps a shade underrated. But he also wasn't a defensive anchor, and he was considerably lower-impact on offense.

I don’t see this as much of a comparison unless you expect Jokic to fall off a cliff soon. I’d argue this is his 3rd season of being better than peak Moses.

Nikola has been better than Moses for a few seasons now.

You won't find a bigger Moses fan than me here. It's Jokic quite comfortably.

Moses vs Current Embiid is much more interesting.

Colbinii wrote:Moses vs Current Embiid is much more interesting.

I think this is closer but if the question is building around Moses in the late 70's/early 80's vs Embiid now I think its clearly Moses.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Moses vs Current Embiid is much more interesting.

I think this is closer but if the question is building around Moses in the late 70's/early 80's vs Embiid now I think its clearly Moses.

Is it?

The health issues are there, but there's a large defensive gap to consider as well.

70sFan wrote:You won't find a bigger Moses fan than me here.

He's not in your Top 20 and you have the Admiral over him ;0)

tsherkin wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Moses vs Current Embiid is much more interesting.

I think this is closer but if the question is building around Moses in the late 70's/early 80's vs Embiid now I think its clearly Moses.

Is it?

The health issues are there, but there's a large defensive gap to consider as well.

I get the defense(though I think Moses wasn't exactly terrible in that regard), and games played are part of it too but more so I like Moses better in the playoffs and how he could take huge mpg and give consistent production(along with some great runs that went pretty far).

Cavsfansince84 wrote: I get the defense(though I think Moses wasn't exactly terrible in that regard),

Wasn't terrible, and was a difficult body in isolation on the block, but nothing like the same impact level as a team defender. It's a large, large gap.

and games played are part of it too but more so I like Moses better in the playoffs and how he could take huge mpg and give consistent production(along with some great runs that went pretty far).

As you say, the durability issue is there, it's the keystone of the whole conversation, IMHO.

Moses was very good, and perhaps a shade underrated. But he also wasn't a defensive anchor,

Come again? Moses Malone was all-defensive 1st team in 1982-83, the year the 76ers won the title. And he was named to the 1st team over some other damn good defensive Cs that season like Tree Rollins, Mark Eaton, Gilmore, Parish, and Jabbar.

Just out of curiosity, are there any other Cs that were named all-defensive 1st team that you don't feel were defensive anchors? Isn't the whole point of that award just that?

He was also named to the all-defensive 2nd team as a C in 1978-79, when Houston was the worst defensive team in the league. And the voters were NBA head coaches back then, who voted him over other really good defensive Cs like Rollins, George Johnson, Caldwell Jones, jack Sikma, and Gilmore.

Or are you of the opinion that the coaches back then - who game planned against these players - didn't know who the best defenders were?

I don't know if you saw Malone play back in the last 70s and early 80s, but I can flat out tell you that watching Malone vs. Jabbar, or Malone vs. Gilmore, or Malone vs. Walton, or Malone vs. Parish was watching some of the best offensive and defensive battles on both sides ever.

He was a much better defender than Jokic ever has been, and he did so committing significantly less fouls while being almost twice the shot blocker.

and he was considerably lower-impact on offense.

Come again? Malone his first decade in the NBA scored the 3rd most points among all players (only Jabbar and Gervin scored more), while also grabbing 2000 more offensive rebounds than any other player.

He also drew a ton of fouls and routinely got 700+ FTAs a season. That's a lot of opposing players he fouled out, or sent to the bench early with foul trouble. How's that for impact?

Jokic has never attempted even 470 FTAs in a season, and never grabbed even 230 offensive rebounds in a season. Malone grabbed 300+ offensive rebounds in a season 15 times, 400+ 6 times, and 500+ 3 times.

Give me Malone in his prime over Jokic anyday. Missed far fewer games, played far more minutes per game, better on offense, much better on defense.

kcktiny wrote:Come again? Moses Malone was all-defensive 1st team in 1982-83, the year the 76ers won the title. And he was named to the 1st team over some other damn good defensive Cs that season like Tree Rollins, Mark Eaton, Gilmore, Parish, and Jabbar.

And?

Just out of curiosity, are there any other Cs that were named all-defensive 1st team that you don't feel were defensive anchors? Isn't the whole point of that award just that?

DeAndre Jordan, Marcus Camby, Tree Rollins, and Dave Cowens come to mind.

Much like the DPOY or the MVP or whatever, the awards mean only so much. They're narrative-driven.

The Sixers were the 7th-ranked defense in 82 and lost in 6 to the Lakers in the Finals; Moses added only so much to that team. Like, he obviously helped and had a great year, but there are MANY questions about his overall impact over the years. Within tolerance, of course; again, he was very good, but his ability to change that team went only so far.

Or are you of the opinion that the coaches back then - who game planned against these players - didn't know who the best defenders were?

I routinely question the voters for the various teams and awards, in all eras, yes.

I don't know if you saw Malone play back in the last 70s and early 80s, but I can flat out tell you that watching Malone vs. Jabbar, or Malone vs. Gilmore, or Malone vs. Walton, or Malone vs. Parish was watching some of the best offensive and defensive battles on both sides ever.

If you were less interested in making an incredulous response, you'd have recalled that I did note that he was a good post defender.

He was a much better defender than Jokic ever has been, and he did so committing significantly less fouls while being almost twice the shot blocker.

Non-sequitur, I didn't mention Jokic in discussing Moses' defense.

Come again? Malone his first decade in the NBA scored the 3rd most points among all players (only Jabbar and Gervin scored more), while also grabbing 2000 more offensive rebounds than any other player.

And?

Jokic has never attempted even 470 FTAs in a season, and never grabbed even 230 offensive rebounds in a season. Malone grabbed 300+ offensive rebounds in a season 15 times, 400+ 6 times, and 500+ 3 times.

And again I ask, "and?"

tsherkin wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote: I get the defense(though I think Moses wasn't exactly terrible in that regard),

Wasn't terrible, and was a difficult body in isolation on the block, but nothing like the same impact level as a team defender. It's a large, large gap.

and games played are part of it too but more so I like Moses better in the playoffs and how he could take huge mpg and give consistent production(along with some great runs that went pretty far).

As you say, the durability issue is there, it's the keystone of the whole conversation, IMHO.

Part of this is era based imo. Embiid is asked to cover more ground due in part that centers being fed the ball in the low block is no longer a major part of offense. So I'm judging them relative to era I'm not going to hold that against Moses all that much. I don't think durability is the whole keystone though. Embiid simply is not the player performer that Moses was in any way that I see so far. Moses also could play much larger minutes(whether its simply because he was asked to he actually did may be part of that but at the end of the day he did it). Also factor in Moses' off rebounding and in terms of scoring efficiency very close.

Cavsfansince84 wrote: Part of this is era based imo.

No, this was just Moses. Shot-blocking and help defense in general was a core aspect of the center position well before Moses and well after. Embiid is much, much better at covering ground and contesting shots and generally making a nuisance of himself on D than Moses was. Malone was a strong guy, a very very strong guy, and he was a quality iso post defender. He also wasn't a horrible help defender, he just wasn't anchor-level.

But I hear what you're saying about playoff performance beyond durability. He was a robust playoff performer, and usually pretty good. Had a couple stinkers with Houston, and his 85 with Philly wasn't stellar, but he looked pretty good on average. And Embiid's drop-off is Robinsonian in scope. He goes from a scoring leader to a guy who scores at a level similar to Moses, as it happens. Still a killer draw rate, but his ability to make shots definitely drops off.

kcktiny wrote:

Moses was very good, and perhaps a shade underrated. But he also wasn't a defensive anchor,

Come again? Moses Malone was all-defensive 1st team in 1982-83, the year the 76ers won the title. And he was named to the 1st team over some other damn good defensive Cs that season like Tree Rollins, Mark Eaton, Gilmore, Parish, and Jabbar.

Just out of curiosity, are there any other Cs that were named all-defensive 1st team that you don't feel were defensive anchors? Isn't the whole point of that award just that?

He was also named to the all-defensive 2nd team as a C in 1978-79, when Houston was the worst defensive team in the league. And the voters were NBA head coaches back then, who voted him over other really good defensive Cs like Rollins, George Johnson, Caldwell Jones, jack Sikma, and Gilmore.

Or are you of the opinion that the coaches back then - who game planned against these players - didn't know who the best defenders were?

I don't know if you saw Malone play back in the last 70s and early 80s, but I can flat out tell you that watching Malone vs. Jabbar, or Malone vs. Gilmore, or Malone vs. Walton, or Malone vs. Parish was watching some of the best offensive and defensive battles on both sides ever.

He was a much better defender than Jokic ever has been, and he did so committing significantly less fouls while being almost twice the shot blocker.

and he was considerably lower-impact on offense.

Come again? Malone his first decade in the NBA scored the 3rd most points among all players (only Jabbar and Gervin scored more), while also grabbing 2000 more offensive rebounds than any other player.

He also drew a ton of fouls and routinely got 700+ FTAs a season. That's a lot of opposing players he fouled out, or sent to the bench early with foul trouble. How's that for impact?

Jokic has never attempted even 470 FTAs in a season, and never grabbed even 230 offensive rebounds in a season. Malone grabbed 300+ offensive rebounds in a season 15 times, 400+ 6 times, and 500+ 3 times.

Give me Malone in his prime over Jokic anyday. Missed far fewer games, played far more minutes per game, better on offense, much better on defense.

Many now seem to be influenced by skillful offensive moves and seem to miss the meat and potatoes aspect. Moses was and s probably the number one example of effectiveness and not flashiness. As you said, he put incredible pressure on defenses with his offensive rebounding and effort, drawing so many fouls. What Jokic clearly has over Moses, and it is rather big, is passing, where Moses didn't do much of it. Offensively it is Jokic but not by a big amount and defensively it is Moses, who had a few good years, but that also is not by a big difference. Overall they are close at their peak. Moses rampaged until the mid 80s, carries some bad teams himself. He is underrated and forgotten really.

I like Moses a lot but would take Joker. For sure, I take Malone over Embiid-different level of player
Embiid, for me, is VERY overrated due to durability issues, and weak performances in the playoffs. LOTS of centers I would take over him

wojoaderge wrote:

70sFan wrote:You won't find a bigger Moses fan than me here.

He's not in your Top 20 and you have the Admiral over him ;0)

Yes, I am also the biggest Adrian Dantley fan on this board and I don't have him inside my top 50. So what?

Colbinii wrote:Moses vs Current Embiid is much more interesting.

I agree and I would take peak Moses over any Embiid season.

tsherkin wrote:

kcktiny wrote:Just out of curiosity, are there any other Cs that were named all-defensive 1st team that you don't feel were defensive anchors? Isn't the whole point of that award just that?

DeAndre Jordan, Marcus Camby, Tree Rollins, and Dave Cowens come to mind.

I agree with your point, but how Dave Cowens wasn't a defensive anchor? Cowens is easily one of the best defenders ever. You don't have to block a lot of shots to be an anchor.