RealGM

We hear a lot about who has and hasn't stuff in their "bag". In my understanding, the stuff in the bag is the sophisticated pure basketball skill that is, so to say, non-DNA based, at least not primarily, but rather akquired through early and thorough teaching of sound funamentals. That means i am not looking at athleticism, nor do i consider shooting touch something in the bag, because it can only be trained so much. Also not looking at players who primarily succeeded through raw power/physical dominance like Shaq, LeBron oder Giannis.

Since the league has changed the way the game is officiated from last century - at least in my impression -, i wouldnt compare todays' players to the Birds, MJ's and Dreams of history. But my question is, who in your book has the fullest "bag" of tricks, fundamentals, footwork, fakes, moves and countermoves in the 2000's? If you can, also link some videos backing up your fav player. I'll set up a poll of guys i can think of in the 2000's.

it doesn't get better than Jokic and Manu when it comes to "extra resources" and unpredictability imo

I would never ever ever consider Duncan, KD or even Dirk here, honestly. Would add Manu or Harden instead.

Not sure Duncan or KD have a bigger "bag" than Luis Scola or Jimmy Butler, what separates them offensively is other stuff.

Kyrie Irving, without a doubt.

Bag is offensive technical skills. Especially scoring skills. Skills: dribbling, shooting, finishing, scoring moves, passing. More specifically, variety of (possibly, smooth) dribbling, scoring, finishing moves and flashy passes. Even more specifically, hitting a variety of crazy shots and being smoooth. N.1 is kyrie: best ball handling ever, best finishing skills ever (which doesn't mean scoring value at the rim, that depends on physical skills etc.), elite shooting, etc. Then we have guys like curry (best shooter ever, crazy shotmaking, crazy ballhandling, crazy finishing), harden (all time great ball handling, great shooting, stepbacks, elite passer, probably has mastered basketball more than anybody else ever as far as the ability of making plays with the ball in his hands), kobe (good shooting and ball handling but not elite, but he mastered the postup, midrange game, one of the best tough shot makers ever, incredible arsenal, left hand). Trae young is an underrated pick: he has 0 defense or physical abilities, but he has range, makes crazy shots, he has incredible touch, passing, ball handling, playmaking. He has it all skills wise. Lillard is up there. Cj mccollum another sleeper pick. Doesn't have much phisically but he has great ball handling and every shot in the book. Yeah, luka isn't bad because he does all kind of crazy stuff, he has great ball handling and passing and hits the wildest shots. Then you have the smooth wing players like paul george, tatum, melo, mcgrady etc

So basically the "bag" is (among other things) who takes the most bad shots rather than working to get a good one?

penbeast0 wrote:So basically the "bag" is (among other things) who takes the most bad shots rather than working to get a good one?

Probably the flashy stuff, I guess. The unnecessary dribbles, breadth of post moves, etc. And yeah, maybe ways to get contested looks. Most guys have some go-to moves and spots and then a basic catalog of dribble attacks. Someone like Kyrie obviously has a deeper library of effective dribble moves, but lags behind in shot selection and finishing touch compared to others. Kobe and Melo both used a lot of moves, but much of the time that wasnt actually super wise. Kobe is maybe a poor inclusion there because he was, in fact, the most effective isolation scorer of his era, if memory serves. Im thinking more of him overisolating and making poor choices from 3. His triple threat and live dribble attack were great. Off ball, as well.

Kobe has the best “bag” of the 2000’s as defined by the OP.

No Steph? Or Jamal Crawford?

Bag is a made up term for casuals.

Jokic, Kobe, Dirk & Kyrie have counters on top of counters. Their footwork is incredible. Paul Pierce is an honorable mention

KD felt like a cheat code, it's not necessary a "bag", he could raise up at any spot and there's nothing you can do. Chris Paul was quick as hell in his prime, he has effective dribble moves to get an open mid-range. These players' go to moves were hard to stop.

2000's looks like you're really saying this century?

Tmac, Iverson come to mind as honorable mentions. This would favour some of the early mid 2000s guys given the style of 1-1 isolation which required this. As opposed to a more refined archetype of player we see today.

parsnips33 wrote:No Steph? Or Jamal Crawford?

Woudl you say Steph's impact is more raw talent (best shooting touch ever) or the result of relentless fundamentals training?

It’s Kyrie and kobe lol

I refuse to believe that there are people here that don’t know what it means for a player to have a bag or acting like it’s weird lol, kinda disgusting ngl

I dont know who used the term first. I actually thought it was a player using it recently, but maybe they are "casuals" too by some of realGM's experts' definition.

Thinking about it, something in the bag in my opinion would have to fulfill these criteria:
- Learned, not "godgiven"
- not dependant on superhuman speed, quickness, athleticism, hand/eye coordination
- something that can be used with the same success in later stages of the career (because of above constraints)

Its something for the offensive end, and its not the one trick pony like same thing over and over, but rather a combination of initial moves, then a decision tree of moves and counter moves and counter counters and so on. Thats why the minimum requirement would be great footwork, where you know how to exploit the limitations given through the rules to the max.. A typical move is the up-and-under or the dream shake. I am not sure i'd agree to qualify Kyrie's or A.I.'s crazy moves because somehow they are just another expression of freak athleticism and hand-eye-coordination.

JimmyFromNz wrote:2000's looks like you're really saying this century?

Tmac, Iverson come to mind as honorable mentions. This would favour some of the early mid 2000s guys given the style of 1-1 isolation which required this. As opposed to a more refined archetype of player we see today.

Yes i meant this century, the reason being that i feel like after MJ's departure, since there was no obvious heir, the league softened some of the rules to favor the offensive player. So guys in the early 2000's got away with stuff that owuld have been called in the 90's. Its hard to compare eras under different governance / rule sets. I feel like actually A.I. wouldnt get away with his palming in todays game either, though.

penbeast0 wrote:So basically the "bag" is (among other things) who takes the most bad shots rather than working to get a good one?

The Bag is something you can go to if your team desperately needs a shot. It doesnt have to be a negative thing. Jokic has a never ending supply of mvoes in his bag and he uses them when he needs to, i dont think anyone in their right mind would label him as someone who takes bad shots.

Gilbert Arenas and Brandon Roy come to mind

LesGrossman wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:No Steph? Or Jamal Crawford?

Woudl you say Steph's impact is more raw talent (best shooting touch ever) or the result of relentless fundamentals training?

Some degree of both I guess

The combination of dribbling and shooting that Steph is pretty much unmatched. Only thing that's missing is a post game - Kobe has that over him for sure

Probably Kobe because the transformation of his game from defensive playmaker to a triple threat midrange shot creator. Some guys didn’t change too much or were just incredible with select moves.