RealGM

Who was the better player?

In most circumstances I'd take Kobe as he was a much more capable offensive creator than Tatum. However if the team already has a better offensive creator than Kobe then I might take Tatum for his superior defense and 3pt shooting.

Tatum has better RS numbers, better postseason numbers, better impact numbers, and is a better defender. Kobe…. got to play with Shaq. Seems pretty clear that it’s Tatum.

Objectively it seems to be Tatum, unless you're overly focused on the fact Tatum's team just lost.

The numbers tell me Tatum, but give me Kobe. More space in today's game, he wouldn't take as many long-twos, he'd be like a bouncier Shai Gilgeous Alexander. Kobe at his best was simply better than Tatum, and I think he was at his best between 2001 and 2009, so give me Kobe.

Relying on Kobe to change the way he plays because it'll help the team win seems optimistic

One_and_Done wrote:Relying on Kobe to change the way he plays because it'll help the team win seems optimistic

What has Tatum done vastly better in this regard offensively?

Anyone rethinking this.

We have to stop comparing players post-2017 to guys from the late 90s-early 2000s without an asterisk. Because numbers today are so inflated.

One_and_Done wrote:Anyone rethinking this.

Why would they?

Nothing has changed for me. It is a fair comparison, but 2002 Kobe is superior to 2023 Jayson Tatum.

The word objective has been referenced here, I'd like to think given the team and player I support I'm sticking to that.

There are very few objective measures that Tatum leads Kobe on impact wise, unless putting the entire weight of an argument on TS%, in a cross era comparison where the ease of scoring in today's league is night and day.

Beyond that, playmaking its probably a wash though I think Tatum might be slightly better at making the 'right pass', defense I'd take that version of Kobe. Even some of Kobe's weaknesses around decision making, Jayson ironically replicates given the aspects of Kobe's game he willingly mirrors.

If the question were 'who is the more amenable and nice guy with superior character', then of course Jayson all day.

Jayson Tatum is only good if you don’t watch games and instead look at a spreadsheet instead lol

The amount people try bend over backwards describing his play to justify the fact that his impact data is good while he’s ability is mid is comical

I’d take 02 Kobe without much hesitation. I agree that Tatum is the better defender, but honestly, I don’t think it’s by a lot. First 3 peat Kobe was a good defender for a wing, albeit a bit overrated. And he’s simply much better offensively all-around.

Those that think Tatum is a better playmaker in terms of reads and passing the ball are not really being honest about Kobe’s skill set and willingness to pass. His shot selection wasn’t perfect, but he was a very good, very willing passer who happened to be wired to look for his shot first, because that was usually the best use of the possession, not to mention the second chance opportunities he generated because of the defensive attention he drew. Honestly, although he was not as good (but closer than people give him credit for, I don’t actually see a big gap between the two on offense overall), Kobe’s approach to scoring and passing and the balance between the two, as well as the reads and the decision-making and the shot selection, are all very Jordan-like.

As much as i love Jayson he has no case against any healthy version of 01-10 Kobe. Not same tier of player at all

For me there is a level of dynamic athleticism that seperates the two that statistics just can't quantify

Statlanta wrote:For me there is a level of dynamic athleticism that seperates the two that statistics just can't quantify

The natural follow up is how do you feel that manifested on the court, and how much does the size difference mitigate that?

And then from a skill-focused profile, given that Kobe was basically the best perimeter iso scorer for a decade and Tatum is largely useless away from the RA and under the arc, do you feel Kobe's efficacy there was bolstered more by athleticism or by handles and his shooting ability in traffic?

Tatum laid two consecutive eggs in the finals. If it weren’t for Jrue or Brown or even Kristaps in G1 he’d still be ringless.

In 2023 he laid 2 STRAIGHT eggs against Miami in the ECF down the stretch at home. Turnover, turnover, brick, turnover. Followed by a complete bed crapping in game 3-wasn’t even good enough to make it a clutch game.

Kobe shot an unreal 62% TS in the finals in 2002. Highly efficient with elite defense. This should be the arbiter of greatness if the rest is arguable.


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KingofTheClay wrote:Tatum laid two consecutive eggs in the finals. If it weren’t for Jrue or Brown or even Kristaps in G1 he’d still be ringless.

Kobe wasn't particularly good in the Finals.

For illustration:

2000: 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1% TS on 36.7% FG, 20.0% 3P, 90.9% FT
2001: 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 50.1% TS on 41.5% FG, 33.3% 3P, 84.2% FT
2002: 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 62.3% TS on 51.4% FG, 54.5% 3P (6/11), 80.6% FT
2004: 22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg, 45.6% TS on 38.1% FG, 17.4% 3P, 92.0% FT
2008: 25.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 50.5% TS on 40.5% FG, 32.1% 3P, 79.6% FT
2009: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 52.5% TS on 43.0% FG, 36.0% 3P, 84.1% FT
2010: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 52.8% TS on 40.5% FG, 31.9% 3P, 88.3% FT

So I'm not sure that arguing Finals efficacy is really the angle you want to take. He basically sucked in 5/7 Finals appearances and was okay in another. That 09 series against Orlando had good volume, but that 52.5% TS was 1.9% below playoff league average. Great defense with Dwight in the middle, so not ultra surprising, but still not an ATG series from a dude who was still only 30.

Tatum's 2024 scoring sucked. That much is clear. Apart from the final game, he was quite bad at putting the ball through the hoop. He used himself as a decoy well enough, moved the ball effectively, got out of the way of Brown initiating and wielded his position in the post well, but he was not hitting anything at all, which was brutal. But the majority of Kobe's Finals appearances have been marred by terrible shooting. Note that he's shot 42% FG or better only twice in his Finals appearances, and 53%+ TS only the once. He did not shine on that stage, apart from 2002 against the Nets.

So yeah, not sure that argument is as effective as you want it to be.

tsherkin wrote:

KingofTheClay wrote:Tatum laid two consecutive eggs in the finals. If it weren’t for Jrue or Brown or even Kristaps in G1 he’d still be ringless.

Kobe wasn't particularly good in the Finals.

For illustration:

2000: 15.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1% TS on 36.7% FG, 20.0% 3P, 90.9% FT
2001: 24.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 50.1% TS on 41.5% FG, 33.3% 3P, 84.2% FT
2002: 26.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg, 62.3% TS on 51.4% FG, 54.5% 3P (6/11), 80.6% FT
2004: 22.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 4.4 apg, 45.6% TS on 38.1% FG, 17.4% 3P, 92.0% FT
2008: 25.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 50.5% TS on 40.5% FG, 32.1% 3P, 79.6% FT
2009: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 52.5% TS on 43.0% FG, 36.0% 3P, 84.1% FT
2010: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 52.8% TS on 40.5% FG, 31.9% 3P, 88.3% FT

So I'm not sure that arguing Finals efficacy is really the angle you want to take. He basically sucked in 5/7 Finals appearances and was okay in another. That 09 series against Orlando had good volume, but that 52.5% TS was 1.9% below playoff league average. Great defense with Dwight in the middle, so not ultra surprising, but still not an ATG series from a dude who was still only 30.

Tatum's 2024 scoring sucked. That much is clear. Apart from the final game, he was quite bad at putting the ball through the hoop. He used himself as a decoy well enough, moved the ball effectively, got out of the way of Brown initiating and wielded his position in the post well, but he was not hitting anything at all, which was brutal. But the majority of Kobe's Finals appearances have been marred by terrible shooting. Note that he's shot 42% FG or better only twice in his Finals appearances, and 53%+ TS only the once. He did not shine on that stage, apart from 2002 against the Nets.

So yeah, not sure that argument is as effective as you want it to be.

Personally, I actually think he played really well against Boston in 2010 as well. He had that one really bad shooting night in game 7, which was basically what Tatum did the entire time in the Finals: shoot like crap, contribute elsewhere. But that’s 1 game out of 7, Kobe was actually doing a really good job scoring the ball too through the first 6 games. So I think the aggregate underrates his actual series. He was significantly better in 2010 than he was in 2008 against the Celtics.

Also, Kobe, even in 02, was just much more of a volume playmaker while keeping turnovers pretty low, which also should be taken into account when discussing efficiency.