2000s vs 2010s

[Narigo]

Who's the better team year by year

2000 Lakers vs 2010 Lakers
2001 Lakers vs 2011 Mavs
2002 Lakers vs 2012 Heat
2003 Spurs vs 2013 Heat
2004 Pistons vs 2014 Spurs
2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors
2006 Heat vs 2016 Cavs
2007 Spurs vs 2017 Warriors
2008 Celtics vs 2018 Warriors
2009 Lakers vs 2019 Raptors

[TheGOATRises007]

2000 Lakers vs 2010 Lakers - The 2000 Lakers are the better team and I think they'd win the series in 6.

2001 Lakers vs 2011 Mavs - Interesting battle. I think the Mavs could pose problems, but hard to pick against the best Shaq/Kobe Laker team. I'd pick them in 6.

2002 Lakers vs 2012 Heat - Another interesting battle. The Heat did typically struggle against big men and Shaq is still close to his peak here. But this is arguably LeBron's peak and it's hard seeing the Lakers containing him. Probably a pick-em series. Wade was also still very good here. Honestly not sure who I'd lean with. Gun to my head, I'd go with the 2012 Heat.

2003 Spurs vs 2013 Heat - If this is the playoffs version of the Heat, this is much closer. The Heat would have loads of issues dealing with Duncan's peak. If it's their RS version, I think they'd easily win. LeBron's peak again arguably and I don't think the Spurs have the defenders to really throw at him and contain him. Maybe they throw him off with a zone like the 2013 Spurs did, but I also think that team is flat out better than the 2003 team despite Duncan's decline. I'll go 2013 Heat in probably 7 again.

2004 Pistons vs 2014 Spurs - Don't think the Pistons have near enough shooting to combat them and I think the Spurs' ball movement would dissect that defense greatly. Going Spurs in 5.

2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors - Spurs handled a somewhat lesser version of the Warriors easily vs the Suns that season, but the Warriors are a much better defensive team and I don't think the Spurs have enough threes in them. Going Warriors in 6/7.

2006 Heat vs 2016 Cavs - Arguably the biggest mismatch. The Heat are arguably the worst team on this list. LeBron's arguable peak with a very stout playoff defense. Going Cavs in 5.

2007 Spurs vs 2017 Warriors - Maybe the 2nd biggest mismatch. I think the Suns eliminate the Spurs that season were it not for the suspensions in game 5. Warriors in 5.

2008 Celtics vs 2018 Warriors - I don't think the Celtics have enough threes in them, but this would be an interesting series. Warriors in 6 though.

2009 Lakers vs 2019 Raptors - One of the tougher ones to call. I'd say it's a pick-em series again. Can see arguments both ways. Gun to my head, I'd go with the Raptors.

I think the 2010s have better teams overall. Also the 2018 Rockets and 2017 Cavs are better than almost every title team from the 2000s IMO.

[SHAQ32]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so I think we have to look at the #3 pointers made per game by the champs being compared:

'00 Lakers - 4.2, '10 Lakers - 6.5
'01 Lakers - 5.4, '11 Mavericks - 7.9
'02 Lakers - 6.2, '12 Heat - 5.6
'03 Spurs - 5.5, '13 Heat - 8.7
'04 Pistons - 4.1, '14 Spurs - 8.5
'05 Spurs - 6.2, '15 Warriors - 10.8
'06 Heat - 6.1, '16 Cavaliers - 10.7
'07 Spurs - 7.3, '17 Warriors - 12.0
'08 Celtics - 7.3, '18 Warriors - 11.3
'09 Lakers - 6.7, '19 Raptors 12.4

I'd say after about 2012, the strategic edge of the 2010s makes every subsequent matchup a given, and that clinches the comparison if you're talking about actually pitting these teams against each other.

[Colbinii]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

This is really crazy to me. I feel like the teams in the 2010s have so much more spacing and the revolution in the mid 2010s make it difficult to picture these teams like the 2004 pistons or 2006 heat scoring remotely enough to compete with the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Cavaliers.

[SHAQ32]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

This is really crazy to me. I feel like the teams in the 2010s have so much more spacing and the revolution in the mid 2010s make it difficult to picture these teams like the 2004 pistons or 2006 heat scoring remotely enough to compete with the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Cavaliers.

00s can just move their 3s to the 4, guys like Tayshaun Prince, James Posey. Robert Horry spaced the floor. Antoine Walker had the girth to play small ball 5 in spurts.

[Doctor MJ]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

This is really crazy to me. I feel like the teams in the 2010s have so much more spacing and the revolution in the mid 2010s make it difficult to picture these teams like the 2004 pistons or 2006 heat scoring remotely enough to compete with the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Cavaliers.

00s can just move their 3s to the 4, guys like Tayshaun Prince, James Posey. Robert Horry spaced the floor. Antoine Walker had the girth to play small ball 5 in spurts.

To really be clear about what you're doing here:

You're saying in general that the 2000s impressed you more than the 2010s, and while you implicitly acknowledge that if they actually played like you saw them when they impress you they'd get killed, you're confident that they could instantly adapt to 2010s strategy - presumably based on the other guys they had on the roster who would go from bench to starting 3's & 4's had to get there who are great fits with the demands of role players nowadays - 3 point shooting basically a must.

I would say this is not a realistic assessment of the basketball situation.

[Colbinii]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

This is really crazy to me. I feel like the teams in the 2010s have so much more spacing and the revolution in the mid 2010s make it difficult to picture these teams like the 2004 pistons or 2006 heat scoring remotely enough to compete with the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Cavaliers.

00s can just move their 3s to the 4, guys like Tayshaun Prince, James Posey. Robert Horry spaced the floor. Antoine Walker had the girth to play small ball 5 in spurts.

Your plan is to play Rasheed and Ben less while playing which guard more?

Lindsey Hunter: .28 3P%

That's it. They have no other rotation level guards even at the level required to play guard in the NBA in 2004, let alone now or in 2014.

Or maybe they bring in the 3/4 Corliss Williamson, who managed to play SF and PF in 2004 and 15 MPG in the post-season...without attempting a single 3 Pointer all season.

And you expect them to keep up with the 2014 Spurs?

It's funny that people think in order to compete in the current NBA you can just copy a team from before this era, move each player up a position and then you can win. You realize even guards in the 2000s couldn't shoot, right? You wouldn't even defend any of these guards.

The Spurs have 4 shooters > 40% along with Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili in the mid-high 30%. They would absolutely obliterate the 2005 Pistons.

The best offense the 2004 Pistons faced was around 106 PPP. They attempted only 72 3PA against the Pistons in a 5-game shellacking. The 2014 Spurs attempted 118 3PA in the NBA Finals [also 5 games]. In the series before against OKC they attempted an astonishing 154 3PA with their PF and Back-up C attempting 31 3PA.

[SHAQ32]

I'm saying that the 2000s had stronger championship teams overall and most had the personnel to match up if needed.

But I almost forgot nobody knew how to shoot a basketball in what is the stone age 2000 NBA.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'm saying that the 2000s had stronger championship teams overall and most had the personnel to match up if needed.

But I almost forgot nobody knew how to shoot a basketball in what is the stone age 2000 NBA.

I mean they don't.

And the underlying metrics clearly support the 2010s championship teams over the 2000s.

The 04 Pistons would get curb-stomped by the 2014 Spurs purely because they don't have enough shooting to match up.

[Colbinii]

I'm saying that the 2000s had stronger championship teams overall and most had the personnel to match up if needed.

But I almost forgot nobody knew how to shoot a basketball in what is the stone age 2000 NBA.

The 2000s had stronger champions?

The only way this seems true is if you think the NBA always has the same amount of talent and the teams that won had more collection of talent relative to the rest of the league, but that isn't the case.

The Pistons were loaded from 2004-2006, with all 3 of Billups/Wallace/Wallace being Top 25-30 guys and then Prince/Rip being, at worst, average starters.

You also have to remember there were legitimately awful coaches in the NBA back then and Managements who really had no idea what they were doing [undeveloped or complete lack of analytical departments, for starters]. In 2005 the Phoenix Suns hit everyone in the face and said "This is the future" yet just about everyone except for Stan Van Gundy and the Spurs buried their head in the sand until Kerr and the Warriors came in 2015.

Teams were still often playing with 2 or 1 shooter line-ups.

The idea that these teams could compete with teams with advancements in analytics, understanding and proper implementation of spacing for the first time since illegal defenses automatically generated spacing is pretty wild to me.

The 2008 Celtics and 2004 Pistons are two of the best defensive teams ever and both would get washed by the 2014 Spurs and 2018 Warriors.

[70sFan]

Since matching up teams from different eras is pointless, I will compare them based on how dominant and talented they were relative to their competition:

2000 Lakers vs 2010 Lakers
2001 Lakers vs 2011 Mavs
2002 Lakers vs 2012 Heat
2003 Spurs vs 2013 Heat
2004 Pistons vs 2014 Spurs
2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors
2006 Heat vs 2016 Cavs
2007 Spurs vs 2017 Warriors
2008 Celtics vs 2018 Warriors
2009 Lakers vs 2019 Raptors

Overall, I think that 2010s champions were stronger on average. Even the weakest champion from that decade (2010 Lakers, 2011 Mavs?) are clearly better than teams like 2006 Heat and the best teams are clearly superior as well.

I think 1980s or even 1990s would be a better comparison for 2010s teams with their own dynasties and all-time teams. 2000s are closer to the 1970s or 2020s (so far).

[iggymcfrack]

2000 Lakers
2001 Lakers
2012 Heat
2013 Heat
2014 Spurs
2005 Spurs
2016 Cavs
2017 Warriors
2018 Warriors
2019 Raptors

[AdagioPace]

Since matching up teams from different eras is pointless, I will compare them based on how dominant and talented they were relative to their competition:

2000 Lakers vs 2010 Lakers
2001 Lakers vs 2011 Mavs
2002 Lakers vs 2012 Heat
2003 Spurs vs 2013 Heat
2004 Pistons vs 2014 Spurs
2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors
2006 Heat vs 2016 Cavs
2007 Spurs vs 2017 Warriors
2008 Celtics vs 2018 Warriors
2009 Lakers vs 2019 Raptors

Overall, I think that 2010s champions were stronger on average. Even the weakest champion from that decade (2010 Lakers, 2011 Mavs?) are clearly better than teams like 2006 Heat and the best teams are clearly superior as well.

I think 1980s or even 1990s would be a better comparison for 2010s teams with their own dynasties and all-time teams. 2000s are closer to the 1970s or 2020s (so far).

I agree with all matchups. I find 2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors the trickiest one to evaluate, and mostly because Manu going nuts. Best 3p shooters were Bowen, Manu, Horry and Berry (not playing many minutes). Parker would seriously need to get better. Less iso possessions by TD and maybe they have a chance.

We're underrating the 2008 Celtics, but they seem to have an unfortunate matchup

[PistolPeteJR]

I like 00s except vs 15, 17 Warriors, and 19 Raptors

You're picking 06 Heat vs 16 Cavs?

[SK21209]

Fun thread:

2000 Lakers vs. 2010 Lakers - Kobe/Shaq at the beginning of their dynasty vs. Kobe/Pau nearing the end of their run. Have to go with the 2000 Lakers.

2001 Lakers vs. 2011 Mavericks - 2001 Lakers easily, and that's no disrespect to the Mavs. 2001 Lakers are one of the 5 best teams of all time.

2002 Lakers vs. 2012 Heat - One of the tougher matchups on this list. I think its a long, close series but I'd give the 2002 Lakers the edge in 7.

2003 Spurs vs. 2013 Heat - 2013 Heat. This was the worst of the championship Spurs teams IMO, just not enough offense around Duncan to keep up with Miami although by the playoffs the Heat were not the same team that reeled off the 27 straight wins.

2004 Pistons vs. 2014 Spurs - The 04 Pistons were a legit championship team but this is the 2014 Spurs. In addition to the beautiful offense the 2014 Spurs were great defensively as well, I think the Pistons have a tough time scoring.

2005 Spurs vs. 2015 Warriors - my second favorite matchup on the list. We never got a proper Spurs/Warriors series and I always wanted to see them match up. Duncan's foot was a little iffy in 2005 and Parker was on the verge of figuring it all out but wasn't quite there yet. I wish it could have been the 2007 Spurs here, that was there best team before 2014. I think I'll go 2015 Warriors in 7.

2006 Heat vs. 2016 Cavs - interesting parallel here is that most thought the West champion would be the Finals winner in each season (Mavs/Suns/Spurs in 2006, Warriors/Spurs/Thunder in 2016). I'll go 2016 Cavs because I have the 2006 Heat as the weakest champion of this century.

2007 Spurs vs. 2017 Warriors - unfortunate draw for the 2007 Spurs which I think is the best Spurs team aside from 2014, but the 2017 Warriors are probably the best team ever.

2008 Celtics vs. 2018 Warriors - if the Celtics size down and go with Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Posey/KG this could be an interesting, but I can't pick against the KD Warriors.

2009 Lakers vs. 2019 Raptors - my favorite matchup of the list. The 2009 Lakers are one of the most overlooked teams of all time IMO, they won 65 games and had a +8.1 net rating. I think part of it is that we never got the LeBron/Kobe Finals and the KG injury doomed the Celtics, but that Magic team the Lakers beat in the Finals was 59-23 with a +7 net rating. They were pretty damn good in their own right. The 2019 Raptors were rock solid with no real weakness, just a great, skilled, veteran team around the one superstar in Kawhi. I think its the Lakers in a close 7 games.

[Ben AN]

2-8
00 vs 10: 10 Lakers, the 10 Lakers had the best frontcourt in the league and much better decision makers in Odom, Kobe, Pau and Fish.
01 vs 11: 01 Lakers, too much star power and cohesion for it to be competitive.
02 vs 12: 02 Lakers, better halfcourt offense/defense by a mile.
03 vs 13: 13 Heat, as much of a one man title team as possible vs a complete team with a better top dog.
04 vs 14: 14 Spurs, better offense.
05 vs 15: 15 Warriors, one of the best rim protecting teams that year with a tier 2 offensive engine and more dribble penetration options with Curry, Iggy & Green.
06 vs 16: 16 Cavaliers, better offense by a mile.
07 vs 17: 17 Warriors
08 vs 18: 18 Warriors, better offense by a mile and top end talent.
09 vs 19: 19 Raptors, maybe the deepest team ever with the best player in the series in my book.

[Doctor MJ]

This is really crazy to me. I feel like the teams in the 2010s have so much more spacing and the revolution in the mid 2010s make it difficult to picture these teams like the 2004 pistons or 2006 heat scoring remotely enough to compete with the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Cavaliers.

00s can just move their 3s to the 4, guys like Tayshaun Prince, James Posey. Robert Horry spaced the floor. Antoine Walker had the girth to play small ball 5 in spurts.

Your plan is to play Rasheed and Ben less while playing which guard more?

Lindsey Hunter: .28 3P%

That's it. They have no other rotation level guards even at the level required to play guard in the NBA in 2004, let alone now or in 2014.

Or maybe they bring in the 3/4 Corliss Williamson, who managed to play SF and PF in 2004 and 15 MPG in the post-season...without attempting a single 3 Pointer all season.

And you expect them to keep up with the 2014 Spurs?

It's funny that people think in order to compete in the current NBA you can just copy a team from before this era, move each player up a position and then you can win. You realize even guards in the 2000s couldn't shoot, right? You wouldn't even defend any of these guards.

The Spurs have 4 shooters > 40% along with Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili in the mid-high 30%. They would absolutely obliterate the 2005 Pistons.

The best offense the 2004 Pistons faced was around 106 PPP. They attempted only 72 3PA against the Pistons in a 5-game shellacking. The 2014 Spurs attempted 118 3PA in the NBA Finals [also 5 games]. In the series before against OKC they attempted an astonishing 154 3PA with their PF and Back-up C attempting 31 3PA.

Funny is one way of putting it, but certainly noteworthy.

I've been thinking about this a lot through the lens of paradigm shifts. We tend to think that such shifts are abrupt and everyone goes in the same direction, but the reality is messier than that and it can take decades before people recognize that there was a shift.

In the case of NBA basketball, because of our access to data, this process has been able to proceed considerably faster among the the NBA front offices, but the player culture and fanbase are showing a hundred different strains of cognitive dissonance. What all of them have in common is that there's something they believe as basketball-sacred that they simply can't let die without losing their schema.

I think what a lot of people are pointing at when they try to argue a 2000s team over a 2010s team is dominance relative to era. That's a real thing that has meaning, but you run into trouble when you try to use that as your basis for cross-era comparisons pre- vs in-paradigm.

Another thing I suppose I might say is funny: 3-point shooting adds variance, which realistically should keep teams from being as dominant in W-L and in playoff series once we've reached enough of a new equilibrium. It's possible where already to that point given the parity we saw in the regular season along with the upsets in the playoffs but time will tell. But the nasty thing about it is that folks who aren't aware of the ramifications of shift will likely interpret this to mean that "there just aren't truly great teams like there used to be" while shaking their head in disapproval watching a game between two teams that would utterly destroy those "used to be" teams simply because that's how the math works out.

It's natural to want to find a way to normalize away these era differences, and we can have threads specifically about in-era dominance, but these "vs" threads are often just doomed from the jump because the OPs haven't internalized the full scope of how the game has changed - or to put it another way, how far we now know "used to be" styles of play were from optimal strategy once the arc gets painted on the court.

[Doctor MJ]

Since matching up teams from different eras is pointless, I will compare them based on how dominant and talented they were relative to their competition:

2000 Lakers vs 2010 Lakers
2001 Lakers vs 2011 Mavs
2002 Lakers vs 2012 Heat
2003 Spurs vs 2013 Heat
2004 Pistons vs 2014 Spurs
2005 Spurs vs 2015 Warriors
2006 Heat vs 2016 Cavs
2007 Spurs vs 2017 Warriors
2008 Celtics vs 2018 Warriors
2009 Lakers vs 2019 Raptors

Overall, I think that 2010s champions were stronger on average. Even the weakest champion from that decade (2010 Lakers, 2011 Mavs?) are clearly better than teams like 2006 Heat and the best teams are clearly superior as well.

I think 1980s or even 1990s would be a better comparison for 2010s teams with their own dynasties and all-time teams. 2000s are closer to the 1970s or 2020s (so far).

Whoa. 70s you know I'm a fan, but I think you're way off the mark with the 2005 vs 2015 matchup.

Let me ask you this:

How do you think the 2005 Spurs would do against the 2014 Spurs? 2015? 2016?

I'm curious whether the big thing here is how impressed you are by the 2005 Spurs - the least dominant of the Spurs' 5 titles - or whether this is specifically about a killer matchup edge you see the 2005 Spurs having against GS.

[SHAQ32]

It's funny that people think in order to compete in the current NBA you can just copy a team from before this era, move each player up a position and then you can win. You realize even guards in the 2000s couldn't shoot, right? You wouldn't even defend any of these guards.

Why is it impossible for championship teams with the right roster and coaching to be able to make matchup adjustments? And there are guards today that can't shoot. Also, Mike James was on the 2004 Pistons, to your other point about not having anyone besides Lindsey Hunter.