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Passing department only. Who is better - Manu Ginobili or Draymond Green?

Draymond is an amazing passer for his position but come on ......

Draymond’s passing would look a lot worse if he was guarded like a superstar.

No-more-rings wrote:Draymond’s passing would look a lot worse if he was guarded like a superstar.

Not sure about that. Defenses often play Draymond for the pass like he is Rondo so Draymond has to use the right passing angles.

If teams feared Draymond’s drive I think it would help Draymond’s passing.

Manu might be the best passer ever @ Sg position....................Draymond is stronger as a playmaker than just pure passing.............and hes in a perfect situation with Steph and Klay. Is Draymond a better passer than Blake Griffin was? I dunno about that......

This is a set up lol

Manu could pressure a defense with his ball-handling and shot to a much greater extent, which made him a much more dangerous playmaker.

If you're asking about technical ability to deliver a pass, then sure, they're on a similar plane, but that's a very discrete trait. On the court in a way which actually matters, Manu was a considerably higher-impact playmaker under heavier defensive coverage because defenses knew he would do a lot more than crap himself and pass up an open shot or brick it.

Not sure why everyone thinks this is Manu. Draymond’s averaged between 6.2 and 8.9 APG each of the last 8 seasons. Manu never averaged 5 APG once in a season. And Draymond managed all that with the defense always playing him for the pass first and foremost since he’s not that much of a threat as a scorer. Furthermore, Manu spent more time as the primary playmaker than Draymond did. Obviously raw numbers aren’t everything, but I don’t remember anything that spectacular about Manu’s passing that would make up that sort of difference.

iggymcfrack wrote:Not sure why everyone thinks this is Manu. Draymond’s averaged between 6.2 and 8.9 APG each of the last 8 seasons. Manu never averaged 5 APG once in a season. And Draymond managed all that with the defense always playing him for the pass first and foremost since he’s not that much of a threat as a scorer. Furthermore, Manu spent more time as the primary playmaker than Draymond did. Obviously raw numbers aren’t everything, but I don’t remember anything that spectacular about Manu’s passing that would make up that sort of difference.

Mainly because raw assists per game doesn't account for stuff like difference in shooting volume or the quality of teammates around a given player. Draymond does a lot of simple pitches for the best shooter in league history, and also Klay, who is himself one of the best shooters in league history. The Spurs didn't have that kind of perimeter shooting. They had Bruce Bowen, who was good from the corners. And Duncan often had decision-making capacity, and Parker often had his hand in driving a possession. Manu did, however, average 5.6+ AST36 for 7 straight seasons, peaking at 7.1 and authoring a stretch of 6.9, 7.1, 6.8 and 6.6 from 2012-2015. During that stretch, he posted a 29.5% AST%, which is actually quite similar to Green outside of 2021. And he did it taking 13.8 FGA36 (24.3% USG) compared to Green's 8.9 FGA36 (15.5% USG).

Food for thought.

tsherkin wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:Not sure why everyone thinks this is Manu. Draymond’s averaged between 6.2 and 8.9 APG each of the last 8 seasons. Manu never averaged 5 APG once in a season. And Draymond managed all that with the defense always playing him for the pass first and foremost since he’s not that much of a threat as a scorer. Furthermore, Manu spent more time as the primary playmaker than Draymond did. Obviously raw numbers aren’t everything, but I don’t remember anything that spectacular about Manu’s passing that would make up that sort of difference.

Mainly because raw assists per game doesn't account for stuff like difference in shooting volume or the quality of teammates around a given player. Draymond does a lot of simple pitches for the best shooter in league history, and also Klay, who is himself one of the best shooters in league history. The Spurs didn't have that kind of perimeter shooting. They had Bruce Bowen, who was good from the corners. And Duncan often had decision-making capacity, and Parker often had his hand in driving a possession. Manu did, however, average 5.6+ AST36 for 7 straight seasons, peaking at 7.1 and authoring a stretch of 6.9, 7.1, 6.8 and 6.6 from 2012-2015. During that stretch, he posted a 29.5% AST%, which is actually quite similar to Green outside of 2021. And he did it taking 13.8 FGA36 (24.3% USG) compared to Green's 8.9 FGA36 (15.5% USG).

Food for thought.

yeah not saying that Manu could replicate Nash/Stockton's level of consistency but his ways to generate offense were multiple: dribble penetration, pick and roll, shooting etc...An aggressive and relentless player like him is not always looking for a pass. Teams like Spurs and Argentina could not afford to relegate Manu to a pure passing-machine role. He was more than capable though.
Draymond is basically supposed to pass the potato around on offense given his limitations.

AdagioPace wrote:yeah not saying that Manu could replicate Nash/Stockton's level of consistency but his ways to generate offense were multiple: dribble penetration, pick and roll, shooting etc...An aggressive and relentless player like him is not always looking for a pass. Teams like Spurs and Argentina could not afford to relegate Manu to a pure passing-machine role. He was more than capable though.
Draymond is basically supposed to pass the potato around on offense given his limitations.

Draymond IS a good playmaker. He has obvious technical proficiency as a passer. Good height/vision/reflexes. Good timing. He knows how to work a DHO and a proper PnR and such. He's quite good, and I didn't mean to demean him with my indignant response, but yeah. Manu was so much more dynamic on the floor and didn't have the luxury of the cheatiest "chest pass to 3" bail-out that Dray has on literally every possession with those shooters, you know? So raw APG isn't a particularly good measure here, especially because he shrivels up his own hind end when he's open.

I think the answer here is Manu, but the pass I associate most with Draymond is not pitching out to a shooter per se. His interior passing, especially on the move, is legitimately elite and he regularly displays a high degree of difficulty on those. He's really good at finding angles around defenders

parsnips33 wrote:I think the answer here is Manu, but the pass I associate most with Draymond is not pitching out to a shooter per se. His interior passing, especially on the move, is legitimately elite and he regularly displays a high degree of difficulty on those. He's really good at finding angles around defenders

yeah, again, I'm not trying to be reductive. He's more than the Rondo Assist, of course. The baseline assumption here is that both guys are good. But Draymond shoots so little that it actively boosts his assist output, AND he has the benefit of playing with the best shooter ever, and another guy who is among the best shooters ever. It makes a difference to straight assist passes, and it opens up lanes inside for guys to play two-man games on the weak side with space going to the rim. Draymond's vision is unquestionable and he has high technical skills executing passes, no doubt.

GSP wrote:Manu might be the best passer ever @ Sg position....................Draymond is stronger as a playmaker than just pure passing.............and hes in a perfect situation with Steph and Klay. Is Draymond a better passer than Blake Griffin was? I dunno about that......

Magic played shooting guard his first few years in the league (and defensively, most of his career as did Oscar). Even among those who spent most of their career as a two, I'd take a few over Manu though certainly he's an outstanding passer. It also helps Manu that Parker spent most of his career as a scorer rather than a playmaker in terms of his numbers. I think Steph is more of a playmaker than Tony Parker (though also a much better off ball scorer too of course). That doesn't answer the OP of course; I'd probably take Manu as a passer creating offense.

penbeast0 wrote:

GSP wrote:Manu might be the best passer ever @ Sg position....................Draymond is stronger as a playmaker than just pure passing.............and hes in a perfect situation with Steph and Klay. Is Draymond a better passer than Blake Griffin was? I dunno about that......

Even among those who spent most of their career as a two, I'd take a few over Manu though certainly he's an outstanding passer.

Care to mention them? I can't think of anyone (other than technically Magic, of course).

I'd put Manu on a relatively short list of greatest passers ever. He is probably in the top 10. He just didn't dominate the ball enough to rack up really high assist totals.