Larry Bird/Wilt or Magic/Kareem

[mdonnelly1989]

Which two would you rather have at both at Peak

[Cavsfansince84]

There's very few peak duos I'd take over Magic/Kareem. So going with them though Bird/Wilt would be great as well but I like the flexibility of Magic in transition and Kareem in the halfcourt better.

[homecourtloss]

This is honestly a very interesting question. We saw how good Magic and Kareem were together, even though their peaks never coincided, so if both were at their peaks, we can imagine how good they would be, though I suppose there are have to be some adjustments in usage for peak Kareem and peak Magic. The other thing would be that peak Kareem would be a much better defender than anything we saw when Kareem was playing in the ‘80s with Magic. Get a much better defending version of Kareem, a better scoring version of him, a better scoring version of Magic with the elite, all-time great play making of Magic that wouldn’t be diminished playing with peak Kareem. Milwaukee had an all-time team with a near peak version of Kareem and a much older version of Oscar Robertson.

But then we have the interesting case of Larry Bird and the 1986 Boston Celtics. Bird was probably a slightly better offensive player in the next two years and had a better motor in 1984 and 1985 but was in the real sweet spot there 1986. What made that Celtics team so good was its defense that appeared in 1986 and was gone in 1987 and was not there in 1985. Bird played amazingly well with Bill Walton, a diminished, older, injured, Bill Walton, who could still be very very good. I have often imagined what Larry Bird would look like with a 1977 or 1978 bill Walton. Now, what if instead we put in a 1967 or 1968 Wilt Chamberlain—how good could that pairing be? Chamberlain dominating on defense, scoring at the rim, passing well, maybe not passing at the level of a Bill Walton, but still.

Here is Bill Walton in 1986 in a January game versus the Lakers. He played 16 minutes and scored 11 points on six shots and had seven blocks.

Watch on YouTube

I’m imagining Larry playing with a 1967 or 1968 version of Wilt Chamberlain who doesn’t need to take a lot of shots, can finish at the room, and play dominating defense.

[One_and_Done]

Wilt is the worst player here by a wide margin for me, so easy call.

[kendogg]

Magic and Kareem had better overall careers vs Bird and Wilt, but Bird and Wilt peaked higher. If its for 1 season peak, I'd take Bird and Wilt.

Both are clearly better on defense than their counterparts at peak, and I'm assuming we're playing modern rules where Wilt can dominate like Shaq with his strength. Bird is the perfect floor spacing PF for Wilt as well. And Wilt is the perfect drop center in today's game. He's probably the GOAT rim protector (there may be 2 or 3 better overall defenders in history but pure rim protection he has a very good case) and also has enough length and bounce to block jumpers even without coming all the way up. Pair them with 3&D wings and they'd be the best offense and defense in the league. Their fast break would also be devastating as I'm not sure any big man in the league is faster end to end except maybe Giannis.

Magic and Kareem don't even have that great of synergy, in terms of modern two-man action. They won through sheer talent advantage. Of course Kareem benefitted from Magic's ability to get him the ball in his spots, but Bird/Wilt is more synergistic. In the guard stacked league today, Magic is less of a standout in terms of leading the break.

Wilt is also by far the most athletic player of the 4. Wilt ran a 1:58 half mile in college (timed at Kansas with the Track and Field team) which probably nobody in the league could match. He also ran a 4.6 40yard barefoot (timed by the the Kansas City Chiefs) which matches LeBron James claimed speed. He would very obviously be the strongest man in the league today. And he could block shots at near the top of the backboard and jumpers from 10ft away (there's game footage of both). He's the only player in history that makes LeBron and Jordan athleticism seem human. Nobody in the league today could really contest him on the break or anywhere in the deep paint.

Wilt is a version of Giannis that is 2 inches taller, 50lbs (of muscle) bigger, and a higher vertical. Sure Wilt doesn't have Giannis' handle but he doesn't need it. Giannis is only devastating on the perimeter because he's allowed to take 4 or 5 steps after picking up his dribble. Hell Wilt could slim down to 260-270 and still be the strongest player in the league, and be that much faster.

[mdonnelly1989]

This poll being tied is almost as close as I expected it.

The inside outside of game of Bird and Wilt would be really unguardable. But Magic feeding Kareem in the post would be almost as equally unguardable.

[iggymcfrack]

Magic > Larry and Kareem > Wilt. Seems pretty simple.

[70sFan]

Wilt is the worst player here by a wide margin for me, so easy call.

How?

[One_and_Done]

I don't even think Wilt would be a top 10 player this decade. The league he played in was just too different, and to be frank too weak.

[70sFan]

I don't even think Wilt would be a top 10 player this decade. The league he played in was just too different, and to be frank too weak.

He and Kareem played in the same league and Wilt was probably 2nd best player in years Kareem won MVPs.

[One_and_Done]

I don't even think Wilt would be a top 10 player this decade. The league he played in was just too different, and to be frank too weak.

He and Kareem played in the same league and Wilt was probably 2nd best player in years Kareem won MVPs.

I'm not sure I'd agree about Wilt being 2nd best. Kareem as a rookie was better than any version of Wilt to exist for my money, and of course Kareem just got better from there. So whether Wilt was 2nd best doesn't matter much to me in this discussion, as all 3 of the other guys in this discussion would have been ahead of him.

[70sFan]

I don't even think Wilt would be a top 10 player this decade. The league he played in was just too different, and to be frank too weak.

He and Kareem played in the same league and Wilt was probably 2nd best player in years Kareem won MVPs.

I'm not sure I'd agree about Wilt being 2nd best. Kareem as a rookie was better than any version of Wilt to exist for my money, and of course Kareem just got better from there. So whether Wilt was 2nd best doesn't matter much to me in this discussion, as all 3 of the other guys in this discussion would have been ahead of him.

Yeah, taking rookie Kareem over peak Wilt (that played in basically the same league) makes no sense.

[kendogg]

I don't even think Wilt would be a top 10 player this decade. The league he played in was just too different, and to be frank too weak.

You're clearly a troll. The 60's had arguably the most center talent of any era. In 1965 there was 6 Hall of Fame centers starting in a 9 team league. Wilt was matching up against stars nearly every night. Nobody is calling Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Willis Reed, Elmo Beatty weak talent. And the other 3 teams also had decent centers. Wayne Embry (5x all star) was a mack truck similar in talent to say Demarcus Cousins. Darrall Imhoff was also a 1 time all star who started center for the Lakers. And Reggie Harding was never an all star but he was a 7' 260lb bruiser. Wilt never had an easy night, as big men ruled the early era's of NBA basketball. It wasn't until the 80's when star guards and forwards became more common, due to the 3pt shot and other rule changes.

Wilt would easily be a top 5 player today, and probably higher. He'd be the most athletic player today, and I don't think that's even arguable. Maybe Giannis would give someone pause that's about it. If he was raised in this era, his skills would certainly translate. He was fast, strong, great leaper, good touch, every skill you want in your star center today.

[One_and_Done]

I feel confident 'the 60s had the most talent of any era' is a minority position, even on this board. It certainly would be among the average fan.

[70sFan]

I feel confident 'the 60s had the most talent of any era' is a minority position, even on this board. It certainly would be among the average fan.

I feel confident that ranking rookie Kareem over peak Wilt is a minority position, even on this board.

[One_and_Done]

That's why all those track and field records from the 60s are still standing, because sports are at their apex before they become hyper professional global money pots. I doubt most players in Wilt's day would even make today's league tbh.

What year do you have as Wilt's peak btw?

[coastalmarker99]

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W



If Wilt was in his prime I think that Wilt would have had his way with Kareem as it was he was already his equal despite suffering a serious knee injury.

As in their first ten games against each other, their stats were basically equal

[One_and_Done]

Firstly, volume stats are not a great way to compare 2 players. It's an especially problematic method when you take a guy who has a reputation as a stat padder who doesn't care about winning, then you compare him to a guy over an 11 game stretch. Then you pick an 11 game stretch where Kareem's team is 8/11 against Wilt.

Nor are the stats entirely equal.

Kareem: 26ppg, 15.6rpg & 2.5apg
Wilt: 22.8ppg, 17.6 rpg & 2.7apg

So even focusing in on volume stats, Wilt's specialty, doesn't help him a whole lot, and of course I think that whole approach of analysis is wrong.

In the 2 years this sample takes place Kareem took over a lottery team and led them to 56 and 66 win seasons & a title. What was Wilt doing over this stretch? Yeh, Wilt was hurt in 70, but the team was 7-5 in gamed he played, so his absence didn't seem to affect them much.

Kareem didn't even have Old man Oscar until 71, while Wilt had Jerry West and other good players besides.

[1993Playoffs]

Is it reasonable to say that both Wilt and Bird slightly ( or more than slightly) regressed in the playoffs on average ?

[70sFan]

Is it reasonable to say that both Wilt and Bird slightly ( or more than slightly) regressed in the playoffs on average ?

I think so, though with limited information we have it is reasonable to assume that Wilt's defense improved in the playoffs, so maybe he didn't really regress after all?