05-13 Wade vs 79-87 Moses
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05-13 Wade vs 79-87 Moses
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Cavsfansince84
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05-13 Wade vs 79-87 Moses
Who was better/more dominant over these two stretches of years? Obviously games missed is a factor which each person can factor in however they desire as are playoff performances.
Re: 05-13 Wade vs 79-87 Moses
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LukaTheGOAT
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Re: 05-13 Wade vs 79-87 Moses
While prefacing with my belief that I have a strong leaning toward PS play, I will go Wade. I think both had inconsistencies in their prime because injury/unknown factors, but at their peak they very possibly were the best the league had to offer.
From 05-13,
Wade in the PS averaged an IA 26.8 pts per 75 on rTS% of 3.4%. Created about 7.4 shots per 100 possessions and Passer Rating of 5.7. 4704 Minutes Played
ScoreVal: 1.1
PlayVal: +0.5
One-Number Metrics
Backpicks BPM-5.5
PER-23.9
WS/48-.179
BPM-6.7
Moses in the PS averaged an IA 23.2 pts per 75 on rTS% of 1.9%. Created about 1.6 shots per 100 possessions and Passer Rating of 2.2. 2799 Minutes Played
ScoreVal: 1.3
PlayVal: -0.8
One-Number Metrics
Backpicks BPM-2.9
PER-22.2
WS/48-.179
BPM-3.5
When I look at this, one of the first things I note is that despite how what the per possessions scoring might tell you, according to ScoreVal, Moses might have an argument as a better scorer during this period. When you consider that ScoreVal takes in account a litany of factors, I believe the metric is likely very high on Moses' GOAT-level offensive rebounding, as well as the fact that Moses doesn't need to use up as many possessions as Wade to put up his numbers. Moses can go and get a rebound. Plus, there is less likelihood in Moses turning the ball over, in conducting his scoring game, which is a plus.
The converse is, that per PlayVal, Moses might be the worst playmaker of any superstar bigman we have seen...perhaps the same level as passer/playmaker as a Dwight Howard. With this, he isn't puncturing the defense in certain ways, and I believe the way you would ideally guard him is straightforward, although not easy. I do think Moses has underrated interior gravity, because you likely want to send 2 bodies his way to stop him from getting a rebound, which can open opportunities for teammates. However, I feel most confident in siding with Wade here.
I actually do believe the general box-score can pick up a decent amount of what both of these guys do. With Moses scoring and all-around rebounding, and with Wade ball-dominant scoring and playmaking, along with being an active off-ball defender who can get into passing lanes. Generally, it does seem as if the box-score would lean Wade's way.
A contentious point here, might be that I am not necessarily sold on the idea that Moses was a much better defender then Wade. A steal is arguably the singe most valuable defensive play, because it ends a possession and can lead to easy points the other way. Wade got a lot of these, while being a solid man defender, and pseudo rim-protector. The thing is, for me to go with Moses over Wade, I would have to believe that Moses was handily better on defense than Wade. I don't, and even box-score estimates that you would imagine would strongly help Moses out here because of strong defensive rebounding, and decent block-rates, don't seem to be enough to edge Wade. Furthermore, from film, Wade seems more eager to get in position and help/is not as slow with rotations. Wade overall was lighter on his feet, and I think the group he covered on defense was a real value-add.
We do have some on/off data from Moses' time in Philly. His data is good but doesn't suggest to me that he was another tier of impact than Wade.
Moses in AuPM/G
83: 4.6
84: 1.2
85: 4.6
86: 1.5
Wade in AuPM/G
06: 5.5
07: 3.1
08: 0.2
09: 4.7
10: 4.2
Wade seems to hit higher peaks when he is healthy, and I suppose that is another reason I likely lean Wade. I think Wade at his best during this stretch was better.
From 05-13,
Wade in the PS averaged an IA 26.8 pts per 75 on rTS% of 3.4%. Created about 7.4 shots per 100 possessions and Passer Rating of 5.7. 4704 Minutes Played
ScoreVal: 1.1
PlayVal: +0.5
One-Number Metrics
Backpicks BPM-5.5
PER-23.9
WS/48-.179
BPM-6.7
Moses in the PS averaged an IA 23.2 pts per 75 on rTS% of 1.9%. Created about 1.6 shots per 100 possessions and Passer Rating of 2.2. 2799 Minutes Played
ScoreVal: 1.3
PlayVal: -0.8
One-Number Metrics
Backpicks BPM-2.9
PER-22.2
WS/48-.179
BPM-3.5
When I look at this, one of the first things I note is that despite how what the per possessions scoring might tell you, according to ScoreVal, Moses might have an argument as a better scorer during this period. When you consider that ScoreVal takes in account a litany of factors, I believe the metric is likely very high on Moses' GOAT-level offensive rebounding, as well as the fact that Moses doesn't need to use up as many possessions as Wade to put up his numbers. Moses can go and get a rebound. Plus, there is less likelihood in Moses turning the ball over, in conducting his scoring game, which is a plus.
The converse is, that per PlayVal, Moses might be the worst playmaker of any superstar bigman we have seen...perhaps the same level as passer/playmaker as a Dwight Howard. With this, he isn't puncturing the defense in certain ways, and I believe the way you would ideally guard him is straightforward, although not easy. I do think Moses has underrated interior gravity, because you likely want to send 2 bodies his way to stop him from getting a rebound, which can open opportunities for teammates. However, I feel most confident in siding with Wade here.
I actually do believe the general box-score can pick up a decent amount of what both of these guys do. With Moses scoring and all-around rebounding, and with Wade ball-dominant scoring and playmaking, along with being an active off-ball defender who can get into passing lanes. Generally, it does seem as if the box-score would lean Wade's way.
A contentious point here, might be that I am not necessarily sold on the idea that Moses was a much better defender then Wade. A steal is arguably the singe most valuable defensive play, because it ends a possession and can lead to easy points the other way. Wade got a lot of these, while being a solid man defender, and pseudo rim-protector. The thing is, for me to go with Moses over Wade, I would have to believe that Moses was handily better on defense than Wade. I don't, and even box-score estimates that you would imagine would strongly help Moses out here because of strong defensive rebounding, and decent block-rates, don't seem to be enough to edge Wade. Furthermore, from film, Wade seems more eager to get in position and help/is not as slow with rotations. Wade overall was lighter on his feet, and I think the group he covered on defense was a real value-add.
We do have some on/off data from Moses' time in Philly. His data is good but doesn't suggest to me that he was another tier of impact than Wade.
Moses in AuPM/G
83: 4.6
84: 1.2
85: 4.6
86: 1.5
Wade in AuPM/G
06: 5.5
07: 3.1
08: 0.2
09: 4.7
10: 4.2
Wade seems to hit higher peaks when he is healthy, and I suppose that is another reason I likely lean Wade. I think Wade at his best during this stretch was better.