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Who was the best defensive player, prime vs prime?
It's interesting because in my view there are some similarities.
Both had an overall positive impact with some clear weaknesses that could be exploited in some matchups.
Shaq was a stronger rim protector but Jokic is more active, to me they're actually pretty close.

Is this a relative to era comparison? Didn't Shaq lead the Lakers to #1 RS defence in 2000? Don't think Jokic would ever manage that in this day and age

Shaq is a better defender, but i wouldn’t say it’s by a lot.

Shaq was more intimidating and a better post defender. For his era, I'd give him a clear edge. For today's NBA with so many teams imitating GS's death lineup or outside shooting bigs, it's not as clear.

Shaq also is the GOAT, from some data I've seen, at giving up the least percentage of And-1s (data I saw only covered around 15 years but it was an extreme level of dominance). When Shaq fouled you, you knew you'd been fouled.

In today's game, it's Jokic. A big thing that no one talks about much with Jokic is his motor. This dude has been playing 40+ minutes in some of these playoff games and hasn't been gassed at the end of any of them. I doubt Lakers Shaq can play as many minutes in today's setting.

Back then, Shaq.

In a league where teams strategically use space to murder bigs, Jokic.

Shaq would fair a bit better if he trained with these threats in mind instead of going for size & power in his prime, but Jokic has a major brain advantage as well.

I'm with penbeast and Doc. Shaq's D in-ers was better for his league. Jokic is better for today's league.

If Shaq didnt get fat and lose mobility, with proper training, he had the tools to be better today, but would he be?

Relative to era, I do think Shaq had a more notable impact on defense (particularly his peak), even though in the PS there were teams like the Kings could at times exploit his pick and roll defense. The way the game was played then was less stretched out and therefore harder to get a guy like Shaq on an island.

I also think Shaq was a better man defender, as well.
for all his warts as a defender, Shaq WAS a strong man defender. From 1998-2003, All-Star centers scored shot 3.6 TS% when they faced him versus how they did against the rest of the league. For comparison, this is similar to to how Dikembe Mutombo performed against All-Star centers during his defensive prime from 1992-98 (Ben Taylor, Backpicks Write-Up on Shaq). In Shaq's era, defending post-ups were much more common and therefore I believe a bigger value add than they are now.

I also think Shaq's offense benefitted his defense. He drew so many fouls and got frontlines in foul trouble, such that a worse big would have to come in off the bench to fill in. Which means, that the best offensive bigs were not always on the floor. There was also a fact that the league went through a bit of a patch, where some big guys were largely employed just to guard Shaq. They were not the most offensively talented, but they were big and strong. Once again, to damper Shaq's offensive impact, I believe the opposing team came up some offense.

I think Shaq's defensive peak is 2000. The Lakers had the #1 defense in the league that year (-5.9 rDRTG). And while, Shaq had a good defensive supporting cast around him, he absolutely was the #1 most impactful defender.

This is a very rough-estimate, which cuts off some of Shaq's Prime Years, and doesn't include 23 Jokic (but includes the years Jokic was developing); but if you look at 97-22 RAPM

Shaq D-RAPM: 2.9

Jokic: 1

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Relative to era, I do think Shaq had a more notable impact on defense (particularly his peak), even though in the PS there were teams like the Kings could at times exploit his pick and roll defense. The way the game was played then was less stretched out and therefore harder to get a guy like Shaq on an island.

I also think Shaq was a better man defender, as well.
for all his warts as a defender, Shaq WAS a strong man defender. From 1998-2003, All-Star centers scored shot 3.6 TS% when they faced him versus how they did against the rest of the league. For comparison, this is similar to to how Dikembe Mutombo performed against All-Star centers during his defensive prime from 1992-98 (Ben Taylor, Backpicks Write-Up on Shaq). In Shaq's era, defending post-ups were much more common and therefore I believe a bigger value add than they are now.

I also think Shaq's offense benefitted his defense. He drew so many fouls and got frontlines in foul trouble, such that a worse big would have to come in off the bench to fill in. Which means, that the best offensive bigs were not always on the floor. There was also a fact that the league went through a bit of a patch, where some big guys were largely employed just to guard Shaq. They were not the most offensively talented, but they were big and strong. Once again, to damper Shaq's offensive impact, I believe the opposing team came up some offense.

I think Shaq's defensive peak is 2000. The Lakers had the #1 defense in the league that year (-5.9 rDRTG). And while, Shaq had a good defensive supporting cast around him, he absolutely was the #1 most impactful defender.

This is a very rough-estimate, which cuts off some of Shaq's Prime Years, and doesn't include 23 Jokic (but includes the years Jokic was developing); but if you look at 97-22 RAPM

Shaq D-RAPM: 2.9

Jokic: 1

that lakers regular seaosn defense collapsed to below average in the playoffs with all their opponents specifcally cooking the lakers at the rim.

I think I still prefer Shaq. Jokic looked phenomenal in the last 2 games, but don't forget that we're talking about him against very undersized team with no rim pressure and Denver plays the scheme to hide Jokic's rim protection issues.

I like the motor mention though - Shaq was certainly a lazy defender in many seasons.