’87 Magic Johnson vs ’23 Nikola Jokic

[Matt15]

Who was the better player?

[The Master]

The same tier of offensive juggernauts - I'd give an edge to Jokic for being more capable of playing a high volume scorer role, but if there was ''equal'' option in a poll, I would've gone with that.

[iggymcfrack]

Jokic crushes him statistically, he's a better defender, and he did it against better competition. Magic's passing ability still probably gains a tiny bit extra non-box value over Jokic's, but it's not even close to enough to make up the rest of the difference.

[Heej]

Magic got the edge in playmaking imo but this is still Jokic. Better scorer defender and rebounder and thats enough to put him over Magic imo

[70sFan]

I may entertain Jokic here, it's certainly very close. For now, I'd say they are on even level and I have to wait some time to calm down after his amazing performance.

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

[Colbinii]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Why aren't they in the same class?

What did Magic do that put him in a class above Jokic?

[WestGOAT]

Nuggets struggled at times to get Jokic the ball with a small on him when Miami went zone, like Gabe Vincent (granted he was basically grabbing/fouling Nikola and refs let him get away with it), don't think Magic would have this problem.

[HeartBreakKid]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Jokic is the best player in the NBA and has been for a few years. Why wouldn't he be in the same class as Magic?

[Colbinii]

Nuggets struggled at times to get Jokic the ball with a small on him when Miami went zone, like Gabe Vincent (granted he was basically grabbing/fouling Nikola and refs let him get away with it), don't think Magic would have this problem.

Do you think that makes up for the gap in scoring?

Jokic scored 38.7 PP100 on 63.1 TS%
Magic scored 28.1 PP100 on 60.7 TS%

[Colbinii]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Jokic is the best player in the NBA and has been for a few years. Why wouldn't he be in the same class as Magic?

This board literally voted him best player in NBA last season in a landslide [94.4% of points].

Since 2016, only LeBron's 2016 and 2020 seasons were a higher % of the points.

[WestGOAT]

Nuggets struggled at times to get Jokic the ball with a small on him when Miami went zone, like Gabe Vincent (granted he was basically grabbing/fouling Nikola and refs let him get away with it), don't think Magic would have this problem.

Do you think that makes up for the gap in scoring?

Jokic scored 38.7 PP100 on 63.1 TS%
Magic scored 28.1 PP100 on 60.7 TS%

The gap in scoring seems massive, but I'd be more interested in seeing how their teams relative RS and PS ORtg compared, as both impact the game beyond scoring.

It might seem something relatively minor, but if I'm building around a player as my offensive engine, he needs to be able to get to handle the ball every possession to get the job done, unless maybe the player has off the ball gravity like Curry, which Jokic doesn't.

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Jokic is the best player in the NBA and has been for a few years. Why wouldn't he be in the same class as Magic?

I guess I must have missed when Jokic became better than guys like LeBron and Curry. Even if Jokic is the best player in the NBA for the last few years, Magic was the best player in the NBA for a whole decade and one of the Top 5 players in the history of the NBA. Prior to this season, Jokic never won a conference title. Magic led his team to 9 conference finals, winning 5 NBA Championships.

Let's pump the breaks on Jokic being as good as Magic. Jokic hasn't even passed Curry on my all-time list yet.

[Colbinii]

Nuggets struggled at times to get Jokic the ball with a small on him when Miami went zone, like Gabe Vincent (granted he was basically grabbing/fouling Nikola and refs let him get away with it), don't think Magic would have this problem.

Do you think that makes up for the gap in scoring?

Jokic scored 38.7 PP100 on 63.1 TS%
Magic scored 28.1 PP100 on 60.7 TS%

The gap in scoring seems massive, but I'd be more interested in seeing how their teams relative RS and PS ORtg compared, as both impact the game beyond scoring.

I'm unsure how useful rORtg is when comparing players from the 1980s and 2023.

The Lakers were a +7 ORtg in a league average ORtg of 108.3

The Nuggets were a +3 Ortg in a league average ORtg of 114.8 but Jokic On-Court is +11 Ortg

There are diminishing returns with Offenses and there is a cap on just how good you can be.

It might seem something relatively minor, but if I'm building around a player as my offensive engine, he needs to be able to get to handle the ball every possession to get the job done, unless maybe the player has off the ball gravity like Curry, which Jokic doesn't.

This shouldn't be the case. Jokic fits seamlessly next to any ball-handling guard or wing. That in itself gives him that Curry-Impact where he can still be impactful without the ball.

You don't need to worry about diminishing returns when paired with another ball handler. Magic isn't going to maximize playing next to another lead ball-handler [they would still be very good] but Magic's off-ball game [notably Pick and Roll big where Jokic is one of it not the GOATs] simply isn't in the same tier as Jokic's.

[Colbinii]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Jokic is the best player in the NBA and has been for a few years. Why wouldn't he be in the same class as Magic?

I guess I must have missed when Jokic became better than guys like LeBron and Curry. Even if Jokic is the best player in the NBA for the last few years, Magic was the best player in the NBA for a whole decade and one of the Top 5 players in the history of the NBA. Prior to this season, Jokic never won a conference title. Magic led his team to 9 conference finals, winning 5 NBA Championships.

Let's pump the breaks on Jokic being as good as Magic. Jokic hasn't even passed Curry on my all-time list yet.

We aren't talking about career value, we are talking about how good a player is at their best.

[Bidofo]

Nuggets struggled at times to get Jokic the ball with a small on him when Miami went zone, like Gabe Vincent (granted he was basically grabbing/fouling Nikola and refs let him get away with it), don't think Magic would have this problem.

Do you think that makes up for the gap in scoring?

Jokic scored 38.7 PP100 on 63.1 TS%
Magic scored 28.1 PP100 on 60.7 TS%

The gap in scoring seems massive, but I'd be more interested in seeing how their teams relative RS and PS ORtg compared, as both impact the game beyond scoring.

It might seem something relatively minor, but if I'm building around a player as my offensive engine, he needs to be able to get to handle the ball every possession to get the job done, unless maybe the player has off the ball gravity like Curry, which Jokic doesn't.

Y'know what, I don't think the bolded is so true. Jokic is Dirk-esque in how far he pulls his defender out of the paint, except it's at the center position so the impact is a bit greater. A big reason why Gordon averaged 14ppg on 64 TS% is because he was able to pound the smaller Heat defenders in the paint without worrying about Adebayo who's stuck to Jokic at the 3pt line.

Other off-ball advantages Jokic has over Magic and Curry are screen setting (which he's elite at) and offensive rebounding. If you think 'off-ball passing' is a thing, Jokic is elite at that too in a connective-tissue kind of role. Not that Magic wouldn't also be elite at that, he just does it less as a more ball dominant player imo.

[HeartBreakKid]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Jokic is the best player in the NBA and has been for a few years. Why wouldn't he be in the same class as Magic?

I guess I must have missed when Jokic became better than guys like LeBron and Curry. Even if Jokic is the best player in the NBA for the last few years, Magic was the best player in the NBA for a whole decade and one of the Top 5 players in the history of the NBA. Prior to this season, Jokic never won a conference title. Magic led his team to 9 conference finals, winning 5 NBA Championships.

Let's pump the breaks on Jokic being as good as Magic. Jokic hasn't even passed Curry on my all-time list yet.

I guess you did miss it then. He's been better than Curry and especially Lebron for 3 years.

I dont get the decade argument. Jokic is well on pace for being the best player of the decade (who is in the league now that is projected to be better than him?), and Magic wasn't literally the best player for a full decade or even the majority of one. He was the best player in the NBA...for maybe like two years?

No one is talking about all time list.

[Clyde Frazier]

Recency bias strikes again. Nikola Jokic is a great player, but he isn't in the same class as peak Magic.

Even if you're confidently voting for magic, they're absolutely in the same class. This is silly.

[eminence]

I had them 8th/9th on a recent peaks list, and Jokic closed out strong, can certainly see going the other way, but I'll go Magic by a hair.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm picking Jokic.

Jokic's advantages:

-Better scorer
-Probably more off-ball value than Magic due to:

-time of possession being lower,
-his ability to come off screens
-very likely better midrange shooting
-his ability to be the pick and roll handler or screener, -screen assists (very good screener),
-Floor-spacing at the big position.

Magic's advantages:
-Better ball-handler, agility
-Better in open-court/transition

Also, despite Joker's strengths, his team offenses haven't yet been as good as Magic's relative to era. I understand it might be harder nowadays to create separation due to offenses being so much better, but if we are talking relative to era impact, I do wonder if that is something we have to think strongly about.