Updating my top 50

[70sFan]

Hi, after the end of the season I'm trying to update my top 50 with the inclusion of this season. So far, the list looks this way, but it's very rough after 30th spot:

Spoiler:

LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Magic Johnson
Kevin Garnett

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Steph Curry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant

Chris Paul
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Steve Nash
Bob Pettit

Patrick Ewing
Dwyane Wade
John Stockton
Artis Gilmore
James Harden

John Havlicek
Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
Nate Thurmond
Giannis Antetokumpo

Nikola Jokic
Jason Kidd
Walt Frazier
Elgin Baylor
Dolph Schayes

Bob Lanier
Reggie Miller
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Russell Westbrook

Isiah Thomas
Dikembe Mutombo
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Dave Cowens

I have been wondering if I missed anyone notable or if the order looks suspicious in some parts. I hope you will help me out with this, thanks in advance.

PS: please, do not focus on top 10, I have my top 10 well established by now.

EDIT:

I wanted to make my list a bit less subjective (especially considering active guys), so I decided to make a rough estimation of career title odds in Ben Taylor's mold. To do that, I didn't estimate the CORP for each season of each player (that would takes me ages!), but I decided to do a quick estimation by creating the same tiers Ben did in his top 40 project:

GOAT-level - 33%
All-time - 27%
MVP level - 20%
Weak MVP level - 15%
All-nba level - 10%
All-star level - 7%
Sub all-star - 4%
Role player - 2%

Keep in mind that this rough estimation treats all MVP-level seasons as the same, which isn't really the case in reality, so the results can be different from how I'd really order them. Anyway, here are the results of my estimation (I included all players that were mentioned in this thread that I didn't have in my first top 50, the numbers are in % points):

Spoiler:

Player Title odds
1 LeBron James 381,0
2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 354,0
3 Bill Russell 310,5
4 Michael Jordan 288,0
5 Tim Duncan 283,0
6 Hakeem Olajuwon 278,5
7 Wilt Chamberlain 266,5
8 Shaquille O'Neal 266,0
9 Kevin Garnett 247,5
10 Magic Johnson 213,0
11 Kobe Bryant 211,5
12 Oscar Robertson 208,0
13 Karl Malone 200,0
14 Stephen Curry 199,0
15 Dirk Nowitzki 198,5
16 Julius Erving 198,0
17 Jerry West 196,0
18 Larry Bird 196,0
19 Chris Paul 192,5
20 David Robinson 191,5
21 Kevin Durant 188,0
22 Moses Malone 178,0
23 Charles Barkley 171,0
24 Steve Nash 163,5
25 Dwyane Wade 160,0
26 James Harden 152,5
27 John Stockton 146,0
28 Patrick Ewing 144,5
29 Artis Gilmore 140,5
30 John Havlicek 139,5
31 Reggie Miller 137,5
32 Giannis Antetokumpo 135,5
33 George Mikan 134,5
34 Jason Kidd 131,0
35 Scottie Pippen 128,0
36 Rick Barry 127,0
37 Anthony Davis 122,5
38 Nikola Jokic 122,5
39 Bob Pettit 121,0
40 Paul Pierce 121,0
41 George Gervin 118,5
42 Ray Allen 117,0
43 Dolph Schayes 115,5
44 Nate Thurmond 113,5
45 Walt Frazier 111,5
46 Dikembe Mutombo 111,5
47 Elgin Baylor 111,5
48 Bob Lanier 110,5
49 Russell Westbrook 108,0
50 Dwight Howard 107,0
51 Pau Gasol 106,5
52 Clyde Drexler 104,5
53 Jimmy Butler 104,0
54 Gary Payton 104,0
55 Kawhi Leonard 102,5
56 Rasheed Wallace 101,0
57 Wes Unseld 100,5
58 Kevin McHale 100,0
59 Paul Arizin 98,5
60 Elvin Hayes 97,5
61 Robert Parish 97,0
62 Bob Cousy 94,0
63 Alonzo Mourning 90,0
64 Isiah Thomas 89,5
65 Adrian Dantley 89,5
66 Manu Ginobili 89,5
67 Dave Cowens 89,0
68 Allen Iverson 88,5
69 Tracy McGrady 87,5
70 Alex English 87,0
71 Hal Greer 87,0
72 Draymond Green 84,5
73 Tony Parker 83,0
74 Chauncey Billups 82,0
75 Rudy Gobert 81,5
76 Dominique Wilkins 81,0
77 Paul George 81
78 Bobby Jones 80,0
79 Damian Lillard 80,0
80 Vince Carter 78,5
81 Sam Jones 77,0
82 Willis Reed 75,5
83 Ben Wallace 75,0
84 Kevin Johnson 75,0
85 Bob McAdoo 71,5
86 Dennis Rodman 66,5
87 Bill Walton 65,0
88 Joel Embiid 64,0
89 Luka Doncic 59,5
90 Jayson Tatum 50,5

[WestGOAT]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

[One_and_Done]

Dunno if I could go all the way to 50. Top 10 I could do.

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Magic
7. Hakeem
8. KD
9. Curry
10. Bird

Up next I'm not sure. KG for #11. Dr J perhaps. Tough to know where to rank Russell and Wilt.

[70sFan]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

My list is strictly focused on NBA and ABA seasons, which hurts Mikan a lot because he played half of his career before the NBA got its name. Otherwise, he'd be clearly inside my top 20 (probably top 15).

Davis durability is a huge concern, but he'd probably reach my top 60. Kawhi's case is even worse, because he basically had 3 relevant healthy seasons (2016, 2019, 2020) and I struggle to give him much credit for 2017 and 2021-23 when he doesn't play in the playoffs consistently. I doubt Kawhi would get to my top 60 to be honest, though maybe that's a bit harsh from my part.

[eminence]

When ranking CP3 what aspects of his career do you feel you wind up focusing on?

Schayes is a guy I expect I’d be a little higher on if I did something this thorough.

Overall, nothing looks to wild, so that is what it is.

[rk2023]

When could you see Luka cracking this list, if you'd happen to have a guesstimate?

[70sFan]

When ranking CP3 what aspects of his career do you feel you wind up focusing on?

Schayes is a guy I expect I’d be a little higher on if I did something this thorough.

Overall, nothing looks to wild, so that is what it is.

I still struggle to find balance between Paul's excellent level of play and his durability issues in the playoffs. Would you have him higher or lower than that?

Schayes is the guy I really didn't want to overrate, but I am not comfortable with how low he is right now.

For now, I'm trying to do a rough quantification for all of these top 50 players in similar way Ben did in CORP evaluation (but more estimated numbers, not very specific on all seasons). That would give me a decent idea of how accurate my ranking looks right now.

[AEnigma]

For whatever it is worth, mine is very similar; I would have Reggie up by Barry and Stockton down by Kidd, but where you have both seems normative.

[eminence]

When ranking CP3 what aspects of his career do you feel you wind up focusing on?

Schayes is a guy I expect I’d be a little higher on if I did something this thorough.

Overall, nothing looks to wild, so that is what it is.

I still struggle to find balance between Paul's excellent level of play and his durability issues in the playoffs. Would you have him higher or lower than that?

Schayes is the guy I really didn't want to overrate, but I am not comfortable with how low he is right now.

For now, I'm trying to do a rough quantification for all of these top 50 players in similar way Ben did in CORP evaluation (but more estimated numbers, not very specific on all seasons). That would give me a decent idea of how accurate my ranking looks right now.

Feeling unsure on Paul right now, that's why I asked

Just throwing together a preliminary CORP list for myself as well, in case the top 100 is this year. Very very early:

Curry 2.0
Jokic 1.2
Lowry 1.0
Gobert 0.9

[iggymcfrack]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

My list is strictly focused on NBA and ABA seasons, which hurts Mikan a lot because he played half of his career before the NBA got its name. Otherwise, he'd be clearly inside my top 20 (probably top 15).

Davis durability is a huge concern, but he'd probably reach my top 60. Kawhi's case is even worse, because he basically had 3 relevant healthy seasons (2016, 2019, 2020) and I struggle to give him much credit for 2017 and 2021-23 when he doesn't play in the playoffs consistently. I doubt Kawhi would get to my top 60 to be honest, though maybe that's a bit harsh from my part.

Kawhi and AD both seem like pretty huge omissions to me. Especially when you have (puke) Isiah in there. Isiah was pretty clearly not a top 15 player in the league by the time he won his rings. He was really only even a signficantly positive player from '83-'91. His meaningful longevity is not much better than the other two. You say Kawhi only has "3 relevant seasons" and yet, Kawhi's 2013/14 where he was named Finals MVP is better than all but 3 of Isiah's seasons at most ('84-'86). It only seems insignificant in comparison to the crazy heights Kawhi would reach later.

So if the longevity's similar, give me AD who's top 5 all-time in some box score composites and Kawhi who has maybe the best combination of defense and scoring in playoff history over Isiah who was the second best PG in the league for a few years and then won a ring on a starless team once he started to get a little washed. I really don't see any difference at all between Isiah's Finals runs and Billups' runs. In both cases, the separation between 1st and 4th on the team was almost non-existent, and the lead offensive guy got the credit for a defensive team.

[LA Bird]

Don't see the case for leaving Kawhi and Davis out on durability considering how high some similar players are on this list. For example, Giannis is at #35 but he has played even less than Davis when looking at relevant seasons. Even with Giannis being better than Davis on a per possession basis, the gap is not large enough to have a 20 spot gap between them.

There is no other player who is similar to Kawhi for a direct career comparison but I never liked the idea of excluding seasons due to missed games in the playoffs, especially in later rounds, because you are basically penalizing players for their teams advancing further. It doesn't make sense to say that 2021 Kawhi would have ranked better if the Clippers had been eliminated in round 1 and he had finished the season without a playoffs injury. Same goes for 2017 too. This might be controverisal but I think Kawhi's career up to now is equal if not better than Wade's till 2011 and Wade at that point was already voted #22 on the RealGM list. Granted the list back then was different from now, I still think that puts Kawhi within the top 40 range.

As for other players, cool to see Lanier this high. He is one player who has moved up considerably in my new list. Never been as big of a fan of Cowens as some on this board though - would take say Mourning over him but neither are in my top 50 anyway. Thurmond seems rather high compared to where Mutombo is ranked. Also, would have Butler and Pierce above Gervin and Drexler.

[OhayoKD]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

My list is strictly focused on NBA and ABA seasons, which hurts Mikan a lot because he played half of his career before the NBA got its name. Otherwise, he'd be clearly inside my top 20 (probably top 15).

Davis durability is a huge concern, but he'd probably reach my top 60. Kawhi's case is even worse, because he basically had 3 relevant healthy seasons (2016, 2019, 2020) and I struggle to give him much credit for 2017 and 2021-23 when he doesn't play in the playoffs consistently. I doubt Kawhi would get to my top 60 to be honest, though maybe that's a bit harsh from my part.

Kawhi and AD both seem like pretty huge omissions to me. Especially when you have (puke) Isiah in there. Isiah was pretty clearly not a top 15 player in the league by the time he won his rings. He was really only even a signficantly positive player from '83-'91. His meaningful longevity is not much better than the other two. You say Kawhi only has "3 relevant seasons" and yet, Kawhi's 2013/14 where he was named Finals MVP is better than all but 3 of Isiah's seasons at most ('84-'86). It only seems insignificant in comparison to the crazy heights Kawhi would reach later.

So if the longevity's similar, give me AD who's top 5 all-time in some box score composites and Kawhi who has maybe the best combination of defense and scoring in playoff history over Isiah who was the second best PG in the league for a few years and then won a ring on a starless team once he started to get a little washed. I really don't see any difference at all between Isiah's Finals runs and Billups' runs. In both cases, the separation between 1st and 4th on the team was almost non-existent, and the lead offensive guy got the credit for a defensive team.

Huh?

[eminence]

I would also probably have AD and Kawhi out of my top 50, and generally might be even a bit lower on peak guys, so solidarity from me on that.

[DQuinn1575]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

My list is strictly focused on NBA and ABA seasons, which hurts Mikan a lot because he played half of his career before the NBA got its name. Otherwise, he'd be clearly inside my top 20 (probably top 15).

Davis durability is a huge concern, but he'd probably reach my top 60. Kawhi's case is even worse, because he basically had 3 relevant healthy seasons (2016, 2019, 2020) and I struggle to give him much credit for 2017 and 2021-23 when he doesn't play in the playoffs consistently. I doubt Kawhi would get to my top 60 to be honest, though maybe that's a bit harsh from my part.

Think you need to give Kawhi some credit for 2014 & 2015, and in 2017 he did win 2 playoff series, and was star of one of the best RS teams by record ever.

[DQuinn1575]

It's a real good list, can always quibble. I like Havlicek a bit more than you, and I dont like Gilmore as much, part of it is the ABA in 72,73, and 74 was a lesser league.
The guy who might consider higher is Parish, he was good so long I think people underestimate his peak.
He played a lot longer than even Mutombo, and at his peak I think better overall.

[Doctor MJ]

Hi, after the end of the season I'm trying to update my top 50 with the inclusion of this season. So far, the list looks this way, but it's very rough after 30th spot:

Spoiler:

LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Magic Johnson
Kevin Garnett

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Steph Curry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant

Chris Paul
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Steve Nash
Bob Pettit

Patrick Ewing
Dwyane Wade
John Stockton
Artis Gilmore
James Harden

John Havlicek
Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
Nate Thurmond
Giannis Antetokumpo

Nikola Jokic
Jason Kidd
Walt Frazier
Elgin Baylor
Dolph Schayes

Bob Lanier
Reggie Miller
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Russell Westbrook

Isiah Thomas
Dikembe Mutombo
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Dave Cowens

I have been wondering if I missed anyone notable or if the order looks suspicious in some parts. I hope you will help me out with this, thanks in advance.

PS: please, do not focus on top 10, I have my top 10 well established by now.

So, most important thing here:

I don't think there's anything "suspicious", or ridiculous about your list. Looks very knowledgeable and defensible.

As I go over my first past list right now, first thing: Who is missing from your 50 who is in mine? (Ignoring Mikan)

Ray Allen
Paul Arizin
Anthony Davis
Manu Ginobili
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard


Who is in missing from mine who is in yours?

Clyde Drexler
Dwight Howard
Bob Lanier
Dikembe Mutombo
Nate Thurmond
Russell Westbrook

Beyond that, perhaps the most salient thing for discussion is the fact that I'm ranking Jokic ahead of Giannis.

[Johnny Tomala]

Hi, after the end of the season I'm trying to update my top 50 with the inclusion of this season. So far, the list looks this way, but it's very rough after 30th spot:

Spoiler:

LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Magic Johnson
Kevin Garnett

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Steph Curry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant

Chris Paul
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Steve Nash
Bob Pettit

Patrick Ewing
Dwyane Wade
John Stockton
Artis Gilmore
James Harden

John Havlicek
Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
Nate Thurmond
Giannis Antetokumpo

Nikola Jokic
Jason Kidd
Walt Frazier
Elgin Baylor
Dolph Schayes

Bob Lanier
Reggie Miller
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Russell Westbrook

Isiah Thomas
Dikembe Mutombo
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Dave Cowens

I have been wondering if I missed anyone notable or if the order looks suspicious in some parts. I hope you will help me out with this, thanks in advance.

PS: please, do not focus on top 10, I have my top 10 well established by now.

You missed George Mikan.

[Narigo]

Where do you have Alonzo Mourning and Paul Pierce?

I don't think Howard is that much better than Alonzo. And Pierce imo is better Gervin.

[wojoaderge]

No Mikan? Also where would Kawhi ranking if you 'd expand your list? And what about Anthony Davis, does he also get penalized for lack of (I assume) availability?

My list is strictly focused on NBA and ABA seasons, which hurts Mikan a lot because he played half of his career before the NBA got its name. Otherwise, he'd be clearly inside my top 20 (probably top 15).

I thought you put him inside your Top 10 recently

[trex_8063]

Spoiler:

LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Michael Jordan
Tim Duncan

Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Magic Johnson
Kevin Garnett

Oscar Robertson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone
Jerry West

Steph Curry
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant

Chris Paul
Moses Malone
Charles Barkley
Steve Nash
Bob Pettit

Patrick Ewing
Dwyane Wade
John Stockton
Artis Gilmore
James Harden

John Havlicek
Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
Nate Thurmond
Giannis Antetokumpo

Nikola Jokic
Jason Kidd
Walt Frazier
Elgin Baylor
Dolph Schayes

Bob Lanier
Reggie Miller
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Russell Westbrook

Isiah Thomas
Dikembe Mutombo
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Dave Cowens

.

The only "glaring" [according to me ] omissions are George Mikan and probably Kawhi Leonard. I saw your explanation wrt Mikan above. For the last Top 100 Project, we stipulated considering all American Professional seasons from '47 onward, because '47 is the start of the BAA [whose history the NBA claims]. This allowed us to also consider NBL seasons for players like Mikan and Schayes (and Davies, Risen, Pollard, if you do a more extended list).
At least if considering that far back, he's pretty well locked in my top 50 at least [actually in my top 30-35].

As far as inclusions, Nate Thurmond in the top 35 is the only REALLY hard sell for me.