What are we doing with Jamal Murray?

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #1 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 2:49 pm

I am honestly not sure how to rank him.
He has a magnificent synergy with Jokic, he has great size for the position and he showed he could be a decent defender.
But he's extremely streaky, what would happen if had to lead a team without the luxury of having Jokic next to him? Laso not sold on him as a decision maker, for a guy at this level.

My guard tiers, tentatively:
Luka, Steph
Lillard, Booker
Mitchell, SGA, Murray, Fox, Ja, Edwards
Trae, Garland, Brunson

youngcrev · Post #2 » by **youngcrev** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:23 pm

I think of him as almost Devin Booker, so the tier below him feels right. Honestly, not sure how to rank a lot of these guys, and Murray seems to have that Jimmy-gene to an extent where he becomes a different level guy in the playoffs from the regular season.

I'd probably slide Fox down a tier. And probably put Harden in that tier. Or maybe a tier below with Jrue, Beal and maybe Bane?

I dunno. Lots of good guards out there right now.

Ambrose · Post #3 » by **Ambrose** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 4:43 pm

I have a hard time seeing Murray lead a team as a #1. I'd put him down in the next tier below where you have him. With that said, his fit next Jokic is fantastic, and if I were Denver wouldn't trade him for anyone on his tier or below except SGA.

Heej · Post #4 » by **Heej** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 4:54 pm

Young Kobe. Obviously won't be that great when it's all said and done but I can easily see him making all NBA 2nd team at his peak. 1st team would be incredibly tough but maybe doable

I've been high on him ever since what I saw in the bubble and its only continued to pay off. He has that dog and that passion in him. I really wanna say I think he can be all time but at the bare minimum he'll be one of the great defining players of this generation imo. He's got it all

Post #5 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 5:33 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I am honestly not sure how to rank him.
He has a magnificent synergy with Jokic, he has great size for the position and he showed he could be a decent defender.
But he's extremely streaky, what would happen if had to lead a team without the luxury of having Jokic next to him? Laso not sold on him as a decision maker, for a guy at this level.

My guard tiers, tentatively:
Luka, Steph
Lillard, Booker
Mitchell, SGA, Murray, Fox, Ja, Edwards
Trae, Garland, Brunson

Well I think the #1 thing is just that there's a wide band of uncertain with Murray beyond what we'd normally expect from someone 7 years after he was drafted.

I think we all want to see him just plain look like a star all year long in '23-24, and I frankly think that's likely, but until he does that, basically all of these guys have a case over him.

On the other hand of course, his average playoff performance is really something. Just looking up active players by playoff WS/48 and listing out the guys you mentioned:

Curry .190
Murray .163
Brunson .156
Edwards .143
Doncic .141
Morant .130
Lillard .114
Booker .113
SGA .096
Mitchell .094
Fox .092
Young .057
Garland .056

Obviously I wouldn't look to rank these guys primarily on this list, but Murray's off to a pretty huge star as a playoff performer.

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #6 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 5:49 pm

He's an elite 2nd option. I'd say he's in the same class as Kyrie Irving and Donovan Mitchell.

iggymcfrack · Post #7 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:55 pm

How do you have SGA 2 tiers below Steph? He was probably better last season and his arrows going up while Steph’s is going down. I’d go something like:

Tier I: Luka, SGA, Steph, Dame, Booker
Tier II: Mitchell, Brunson, Murray, Jrue, LeBron
Tier III: Garland, Ja, Harden, Halliburton
Tier IV: Fox, Beal, Caruso, Van Vleet, Trae

TheFire · Post #8 » by **TheFire** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 5:45 am

Playoff Murray: top 3 guard
Regular season Murray: top 10 guard

JimmyFromNz · Post #9 » by **JimmyFromNz** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:30 pm

I agree I find him really difficult to rank.

His score first, microwave shooting and movement off ball is the perfect complement for Jokic, and vice versa. I really do think he's in his absolute best situation right now. In another team where he is the lead player some of those instinctual offensive habits could actually lead to some bad outcomes.

That said, his playmaking has come leaps and bounds post injury and its the improvements in that area and possibly on defense that will dictate how far he moves up the list to me. I understand the Devin Booker shades, as that is exactly what he worked on to separate his game this year.

Colbinii · Post #10 » by **Colbinii** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:42 pm

TheFire wrote:Playoff Murray: top 3 guard
Regular season Murray: top 10 guard

Murray wasn't a Top 10 guard in the Regular Season.

Curry
Haliburton
Lillard
Trae
Ja
Luka
SGA
Mitchell
Booker
Fox
Garland

Then you also have guys like Harden, Holiday, Bane and Kyrie who have some arguments.

SHAQ32 · Post #11 » by **SHAQ32** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:08 pm

Jason Terry type

cpower · Post #12 » by **cpower** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 10:34 pm

below Fox and Mitchell, above Garland and Bane

Medbrat · Post #13 » by **Medbrat** » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:57 am

The only thing we can do is to overrate him as much as possible so we can give as little praise as possible to Jokic.

Post #14 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:54 pm

Raw production obviously isn't everything but it will be interesting to see what it looks this coming season after the playoff run. He was relatively healthy last year playing 65 games at 32.8 MPG and took 16 shots per game on 57.1% TS. Considering their team success in the regular season I'd be surprised to see his minutes/shot attempts change *that much*, but he does have a season under his belt post-injury.

Post #15 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:58 pm

Medbrat wrote:The only thing we can do is to overrate him as much as possible so we can give as little praise as possible to Jokic.

What did you intend to accomplish with this post? Consider this an informal warning to not do it again.

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #16 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:21 am

Looking at this season in confirms me that his value comes mostly from his sinergy with Jokic.
But I also suspect that such value could be replicated by more than a handful of small/midsize guards.
In the meantime, his poor vision makes the offense when he's without Jokic collapse in efficiency.
Is he really anything more than a borderline all star who can get hot for some stretches?
At least his injuries will prevent him to get a totally outsized supermax contract, this offseason, froma Denver standpoint.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #17 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:57 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Looking at this season in confirms me that his value comes mostly from his sinergy with Jokic.
But I also suspect that such value could be replicated by more than a handful of small/midsize guards.
In the meantime, his poor vision makes the offense when he's without Joloc collapse in efficiency.
Is he really anything more than a borderline all star who can get hot for some stretches?
At least his injuries will prevent him to get a totally outsized supermax contract, this offseason, froma Denver standpoint.

He’s mid until the playoffs where he’s better than Kyrie although his three point shooting has been wild this year so far

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #18 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:48 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Looking at this season in confirms me that his value comes mostly from his sinergy with Jokic.
But I also suspect that such value could be replicated by more than a handful of small/midsize guards.
In the meantime, his poor vision makes the offense when he's without Jokic collapse in efficiency.
Is he really anything more than a borderline all star who can get hot for some stretches?
At least his injuries will prevent him to get a totally outsized supermax contract, this offseason, froma Denver standpoint.

He’s mid until the playoffs where he’s better than Kyrie although his three point shooting has been wild this year so far

well, last playoffs he was very good but the same limitations were there, just the Denver switching defense with Gordon at center was working great.

wafflzgod · Post #19 » by **wafflzgod** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:00 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Looking at this season in confirms me that his value comes mostly from his sinergy with Jokic.
But I also suspect that such value could be replicated by more than a handful of small/midsize guards.
In the meantime, his poor vision makes the offense when he's without Jokic collapse in efficiency.
Is he really anything more than a borderline all star who can get hot for some stretches?
At least his injuries will prevent him to get a totally outsized supermax contract, this offseason, froma Denver standpoint.

He’s mid until the playoffs where he’s better than Kyrie although his three point shooting has been wild this year so far

well, last playoffs he was very good but the same limitations were there, just the Denver switching defense with Gordon at center was working great.

Well, the fact that he led non-Jokic lineups to a 114 ORTG in the postseason last year is impressive considering these were generally defensively slanted lineups during the non-Jokic/Jamal-on minutes

Ryoga Hibiki · Post #20 » by **Ryoga Hibiki** » Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:46 pm

wafflzgod wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
He’s mid until the playoffs where he’s better than Kyrie although his three point shooting has been wild this year so far

well, last playoffs he was very good but the same limitations were there, just the Denver switching defense with Gordon at center was working great.

Well, the fact that he led non-Jokic lineups to a 114 ORTG in the postseason last year is impressive considering these were generally defensively slanted lineups during the non-Jokic/Jamal-on minutes

well, those lineups had at least 3 of the other starters + Brown, with Green and Braun playing limited minutes.
An actual all NBA level guard I suspect could have done better than that.