RealGM

Best Passer Amongst This Group?

Paul and Lebron are the worst, and I am split on Kidd.

AEnigma wrote:Paul and Lebron are the worst, and I am split on Kidd.

No, Pete Maravich is clearly the worst; he's a sloppier 6'5 White Chocolate that prioritized his own scoring or went for the highlight reel over the smart pass way too often. Jason Williams didn't impress me that much either.

I have Paul or Stockton the best with Nash very close. Jokic's passing is very different; I need time and context to wrap my head around his impact and find him hard to rank compared to these others. Safe to say, he's the only big man passer I could see in this group.

Cousy, Kidd, Bird, and LeBron are all GREAT passers, just a level behind the top 5 (Magic, Oscar, Paul, Stockton, Nash).

Maravich being snuck in all-time great passer conversations in 2023 is definitely an opinion.

Out of the group though, I would take Magic Bird Kidd Nash James Jokic in no particular order.

rk2023 wrote:Maravich being snuck in all-time great passer conversations in 2023 is definitely an opinion.

Out of the group though, I would take Magic Bird Kidd Nash James Jokic in no particular order.

Magic's not in the OP and you would take Kidd over Stockton and Paul . . . for passing? Defense, rebounding, open court even, but you need to play halfcourt sometimes as well and suddenly it's not close any more.

penbeast0 wrote:

rk2023 wrote:Maravich being snuck in all-time great passer conversations in 2023 is definitely an opinion.

Out of the group though, I would take Magic Bird Kidd Nash James Jokic in no particular order.

Magic's not in the OP and you would take Kidd over Stockton and Paul . . . for passing? Defense, rebounding, open court even, but you need to play halfcourt sometimes as well and suddenly it's not close any more.

Kidd's scoring inefficiency (which feeds into his overall playmaking value and the ability to manipulate defense) is what I am much more critical about than his passing ability, I like the velocity he gets on passes and ability to make high risk, high reward reads more than I do that of Paul and Stockton - whose respective jumper threats are much more tangible than Kidd. That's not to take away, as I think both make smart reads out of 'manipulating' through their shooting / scoring threat.

rk2023 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

rk2023 wrote:Maravich being snuck in all-time great passer conversations in 2023 is definitely an opinion.

Out of the group though, I would take Magic Bird Kidd Nash James Jokic in no particular order.

Magic's not in the OP and you would take Kidd over Stockton and Paul . . . for passing? Defense, rebounding, open court even, but you need to play halfcourt sometimes as well and suddenly it's not close any more.

Kidd's scoring inefficiency (which feeds into his overall playmaking value and the ability to manipulate defense) is what I am much more critical about than his passing ability, I like the velocity he gets on passes and ability to make high risk, high reward reads more than I do that of Paul and Stockton - whose respective jumper threats are much more tangible than Kidd. That's not to take away, as I think both make smart reads out of 'manipulating' through their shooting / scoring threat.

Yep, memeing aside, Kidd is limited as a playmaker, not a passer. His vision and intuition were not too far off Nash, but Nash being an all-time shotmaker creates a chasm in their respective playmaking ability.

rk2023 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

rk2023 wrote:Maravich being snuck in all-time great passer conversations in 2023 is definitely an opinion.

Out of the group though, I would take Magic Bird Kidd Nash James Jokic in no particular order.

Magic's not in the OP and you would take Kidd over Stockton and Paul . . . for passing? Defense, rebounding, open court even, but you need to play halfcourt sometimes as well and suddenly it's not close any more.

Kidd's scoring inefficiency (which feeds into his overall playmaking value and the ability to manipulate defense) is what I am much more critical about than his passing ability, I like the velocity he gets on passes and ability to make high risk, high reward reads more than I do that of Paul and Stockton - whose respective jumper threats are much more tangible than Kidd. That's not to take away, as I think both make smart reads out of 'manipulating' through their shooting / scoring threat.

I guess the difference is that I see "high risk, high reward" passing as more a negative than a positive compared to a great, but relatively safe playmaker like Paul, Nash, or Stockton who doesn't create as many opportunities for the other team to get an easy basket. I believe there is generally a lower risk, nearly the same reward pass out there in most cases, it just doesn't make the highlight reels as often.

So pretty much this comes down to Jokic V Nash I see.

penbeast0 wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:
Magic's not in the OP and you would take Kidd over Stockton and Paul . . . for passing? Defense, rebounding, open court even, but you need to play halfcourt sometimes as well and suddenly it's not close any more.

Kidd's scoring inefficiency (which feeds into his overall playmaking value and the ability to manipulate defense) is what I am much more critical about than his passing ability, I like the velocity he gets on passes and ability to make high risk, high reward reads more than I do that of Paul and Stockton - whose respective jumper threats are much more tangible than Kidd. That's not to take away, as I think both make smart reads out of 'manipulating' through their shooting / scoring threat.

I guess the difference is that I see "high risk, high reward" passing as more a negative than a positive compared to a great, but relatively safe playmaker like Paul, Nash, or Stockton who doesn't create as many opportunities for the other team to get an easy basket. I believe there is generally a lower risk, nearly the same reward pass out there in most cases, it just doesn't make the highlight reels as often.

It's preference and I get where you are coming from (as I further believe turnover economy is under-ratedly important as well), but on that note... Nash was definitely more of the high-risk, high-reward passer than Paul/Stockton (whom fit the 'play it safe' mold you are alluding to describing). From Thinking Basketball's career write-up (dating back to 2018) of Nash and Paul respectively.

in Phoenix, surrounded by better athletes and shooters that spaced the floor, Nash uncorked good passes on almost 9 percent of possessions! While Magic played in a time where there were fewer great passing opportunities, Nash’s wild forays into the paint created many of those small windows.

Like a great quarterback, Nash didn’t complete every pass. Sometimes they came in too hot, and other times, the window was just too small:... Nash threw more problematic incompletions (or interceptions) like this than any player I’ve tracked, a natural tradeoff when gunning for so many high-leverage plays. Although the tradeoff was worth it; it’s unlikely any player in history created as many open shot opportunities for their teammates.

This is young Paul in a nutshell. He rarely pushed the ball down the other team’s throat, but if he felt a transition chance, he would attack it. Otherwise, he was incredibly measured – the all-time Type A point guard.

His dribbling comes at a slight cost — his high time of possession can eliminate backup options when the on-ball action fizzles out — and his passing fell a notch below the all-time greats in limited film study.1 His assist numbers and highlight passes might create the appearance that he’s a flawless passer, but he takes fewer risks than the greats, and his vision is sometimes clouded by a desire to score. For instance, he misses a clear bouncer here for a layup while eagerly setting up a fade:

Paul’s OCD approach led to historically low adjusted-turnover rates, falling in the 96th percentile among all players, with only a few high-volume creators in history turning it over less frequently. He threw “bad” pass turnovers at half the rate of someone like Steve Nash, which, counterintuitively, might have held him back.2 This is the hardwood version of a quarterback who rarely throws downfield; ball-security doesn’t necessarily offset major bang-for-your-buck passes.3 Assists at the rim are a decent indicator of these kinds of high-leverage, quality dishes, and incidentally, Paul’s layups assists (as a percentage of his overall assists) were below-average every year he was a Hornet.

So yeah.. they are similar, but different sort of facilitators - albeit, 2 of the 3 best playmakers in league history for my two cents. Once again, who you would value boils down to preference (I've had this convo with Doc and others on past, similarly titled threads). I think there's more nuance to it than looking at Assists vs. Turnovers to assess passing proficiency - as both of those categories yield an empirical, stabilized sample for a player over time where: (1) all assists and turnovers aren't created equal & where some are more valuable or detrimental than others, and (2) more granular and beneath-the-box opportunity costs / trade-offs aren't considered.

I do think Nash's passing out of the lane is less dangerous than trying to do too much from above the key as the turnover is less likely to create a fast break for the opponents. I also think Stockton was a better drive and dish passer than Nash or Kidd which also leads to more shots close to the basket (though more turnovers he's drawing more bodies like Nash's forays through the lane) and less opponent fast break opportunities. More traditional, less creative, but in my mind more efficient (probably Paul, then Stockton, then Nash).

I'd place Nash and Cousy in the highest tier. Following them in the next tier are Jokic, Bird, and LeBron.

Good to see we all have the same unanimous #1 and there's no need to put him in the poll (Ricky Rubio), although I'm confused by the lack of Magic.

I'd go Jokic, Nash and LeBron, maybe.

Good to see we all have the same unanimous #1 and there's no need to put him in the poll (Ricky Davis), although I'm confused by the lack of Melo.

It's really hard to define what is meant by best passer, even if we were talking about actual quarterbacks. Best arm? Highest completion rate? Touchdown to interception ratio?

Jason Williams.

Jaivl wrote:Good to see we all have the same unanimous #1 and there's no need to put him in the poll (Ricky Rubio), although I'm confused by the lack of Magic.

I'd go Jokic, Nash and LeBron, maybe.

I should have clearly included Rajon Rondo but where do you think Rubio ranks in all seriousness amongst this group?