Luka vs Lebron first 5 years

[Mikeball]

Luka per 100 39.6/11.4/12.3 1.6 steals, 0.6 blocks
Lebron per 100 35.3/8.5/8.9 2.3 steals, 1.0 blocks

Luka TS % 58.1
Lebron TS % 54.8

Lebron does have a huge advantage in advanced stats

Luka offensive rating 114
Lebron offensive rating 112

Luka defensive rating 110
Lebrons defensive rating 103

Lebrons and Luka both had an OBPM of 6.2
Lebrons DPBM 1.5 while Luka is 1.0

Luka BPM 7.2
Lebrons 7.7

Luke VORP 26.4
Lebron VORP 39.3

Luka WS 39.2
Lebron WS 64.6

Luka Ws/48 .166
Lebron Ws/48 .193

I know stats arent everything but who was better through their first 5 years

[scrabbarista]

LeBron was playing at or near an MVP level in his third season and reached the Finals (in a fraudulent, pathetic-joke of a conference) in his fourth. The third through fifth seasons make this clearly LeBron.

Also, defense.

The cumulative stats overstate James' case, but the per-minute/per100 stats that include defense (ORat/DRat, WS/48) accurately reflect the gap without taking minutes played into consideration.

And minutes played should matter, too...

[70sFan]

LeBron wasn't much better offensive player (if at all) before he reached another level in 2009, but in this case I don't think it really matters considering the massive gap on defense. James was already good defender in 2007 and he imported in 2008. Luka wasn't good for most of his career defensively and I don't expect him reaching even 2007 James level on defense.

[eminence]

If anything I think the box-score may underrate the gap. Luka is an offensive wunderkind when applied, but does seem to coast/show up out of shape more than some, I’d slightly prefer LeBron even just on offense. Defensively the gap is huge.

[D.Brasco]

LeBron's defense was well ahead of Luka at the same time, mainly because he could rely on his otherworldly athleticism to help before his defense became more skill based. Something Luka can't rely on.

[Medbrat]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

[Mikeball]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

Luka had Jalen Brunson and Kristaps Porzingis a few years ago. He doesnt really maximize the talent around him. Hes just like Lebron in that sense.

[Medbrat]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

Luka had Jalen Brunson and Kristaps Porzingis a few years ago. He doesnt really maximize the talent around him. Hes just like Lebron in that sense.

That's a very cool story, very wrong, but very cool nonetheless.

[Mikeball]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

Luka had Jalen Brunson and Kristaps Porzingis a few years ago. He doesnt really maximize the talent around him. Hes just like Lebron in that sense.

That's a very cool story, very wrong, but very cool nonetheless.

Not wrong at all. Brunson and Porzingis played their best ball away from Luka. Luka makes Porzingis be a slightly better Maxi Kleber. This is the cost of Luka ball.

It will always look like Luka has less around him than he does because of the way he plays

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think young lebron today would be unstoppable to be honest. I guess luka is too though lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

No way we went from lebron ball to Luka ball lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

Luka had Jalen Brunson and Kristaps Porzingis a few years ago. He doesnt really maximize the talent around him. Hes just like Lebron in that sense.

That's a very cool story, very wrong, but very cool nonetheless.

Not wrong at all. Brunson and Porzingis played their best ball away from Luka. Luka makes Porzingis be a slightly better Maxi Kleber. This is the cost of Luka ball.

It will always look like Luka has less around him than he does because of the way he plays

The lebron ball and I guess now Luka ball takes always reek of people who don’t understand how basketball works

[Mikeball]

That's a very cool story, very wrong, but very cool nonetheless.

Not wrong at all. Brunson and Porzingis played their best ball away from Luka. Luka makes Porzingis be a slightly better Maxi Kleber. This is the cost of Luka ball.

It will always look like Luka has less around him than he does because of the way he plays

The lebron ball and I guess now Luka ball takes always reek of people who don’t understand how basketball works

Not sure what you are saying but Lebron and Luka are similar in that they minimize many players around them

Which is part of the reason why I made this thread

[homecourtloss]

Luka’s poor defense has affected his overall impact, which is why you see his underwhelming RAPM numbers.

This is LeBron quite easily.

[Doctor MJ]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

I'm tempting fate by responding to a fan of Luka's team here but, just for perspective:

If we look at how how these guys' teams did without them on the court by +/- per 100:

LeBron
Year 1 -4.8
Year 2 -6.7
Year 3 -6.3
Year 4 -2.6
Year 5 -8.5

Luka
Year 1 +0.4
Year 2 +4.2
Year 3 +0.3
Year 4 +3.4
Year 5 -2.7

Note that in each of Luka's first 4 years, he had a team that was a positive +/- when he was on the bench. This is actually pretty much by definition what solid supporting casts look like. The perception that they were weak really had everything to do with how big Luka's box score and how small his teammates were...but the former is not unrelated to the latter.

Finally in Year 5 Luka has an actual weak supporting cast, basically comparable by these numbers to the best one LeBron had in his first 5 years...which LeBron took to the finals (admittedly in a weak east). Of course calling the current Mavs a weak supporting cast doesn't tell the whole story, because they have Kyrie Irving, and they have Kyrie Irving because he's a bigger star than Luka's previous teammates and it was thought it would make the team better not worse.

None of this means Mavs fans don't have a right to be frustrated.
And none of it means that Luka's outlier ability to scale his primacy in the playoffs won't lead to chips.

But in general, I have to object to the idea that Luka's had it particularly bad in his first few years. He was actually really well set up to lead a contender early in his career in a way that Cleveland didn't do for LeBron. Didn't happen in the regular season at least.

[Colbinii]

Not wrong at all. Brunson and Porzingis played their best ball away from Luka. Luka makes Porzingis be a slightly better Maxi Kleber. This is the cost of Luka ball.

It will always look like Luka has less around him than he does because of the way he plays

The lebron ball and I guess now Luka ball takes always reek of people who don’t understand how basketball works

Not sure what you are saying but Lebron and Luka are similar in that they minimize many players around them

Which is part of the reason why I made this thread

You made this thread comparing the first 5 years.

Could you explain what players were minimized during LeBron's first 5 years and how LeBron minimized them?

From what I can tell, he maximized Delonte West [Look at his pre-post Cleveland splits in 2008].

Big Z posted his 3 highest PER seasons and 2 more efficient scoring seasons in his career next to LeBron.

He carried a cast of Big Z, Varejao, Pavlovic, Hughes and Gooden to the NBA Finals.

Again, I fail to see how any of these players were somehow marginalized.

[Mikeball]

The lebron ball and I guess now Luka ball takes always reek of people who don’t understand how basketball works

Not sure what you are saying but Lebron and Luka are similar in that they minimize many players around them

Which is part of the reason why I made this thread

You made this thread comparing the first 5 years.

Could you explain what players were minimized during LeBron's first 5 years and how LeBron minimized them?

From what I can tell, he maximized Delonte West [Look at his pre-post Cleveland splits in 2008].

Big Z posted his 3 highest PER seasons and 2 more efficient scoring seasons in his career next to LeBron.

He carried a cast of Big Z, Varejao, Pavlovic, Hughes and Gooden to the NBA Finals.

Again, I fail to see how any of these players were somehow marginalized.

I don't think Lebron minimized his teammates in Cleveland the first time around.

I think he minimized certain teammates on the Heat ,Cavs 2nd time around and Lakers

The perception around Lebron in his first go round in Cleveland was that he had no help and with more help he would do so much better and that he makes everyone else better.

The reality is that Lebrons style only makes certain role players better. Shooters and lob guys.

Players like Wade, Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Waiters, Clarkson, Hood etc

Luka is similar in this way .

They are both elite and team carrying/Ball hogging

The aren't the best at maximizing talent

In Lebrons case in Cleveland the 1st time he didn't have that much help so this ball hogging do everything style was necessary.

In Lukas case he had more on his team than people realize

Brunson and Porzingis had their best seasons this year without Luka.

Finney Smith and Dinwiddie were more needed than people thought

[Texas Chuck]

This thread is clearly part of a silly agenda based on the replies by the OP in their own thread which is pretty sad and definitely pointless.

But counting stats aside, there really isn't a pro-Luka argument to be made. If you want to take just the first 2 years, its Luka, then you can start to argue if you look at the first 3 years but then Lebron starts to pull clearly away.

None of that means Luka hasn't had a great start to his career. Clearly he has. But he's being compared to the GOAT here.

And also, and importantly we have plenty of data that tells us how much both of them elevate teammates. I know Doc is a +/- guy, but that's ignoring that over the last 3 years Luka laps the league in the quality of shots created stat. And how the top 2 PNR combos last year both involved Luka. 3 of the top 5 volume 3 point shooters in terms of percentage of 3's that were open or wide open were Luka's teammates.

[Medbrat]

It's insane that Luka is posting those numbers and we can't even make the playoffs. At this point I'd rather play with g-leaguers + flat-earther than run back that trash of a cast.

I'm tempting fate by responding to a fan of Luka's team here but, just for perspective:

If we look at how how these guys' teams did without them on the court by +/- per 100:

LeBron
Year 1 -4.8
Year 2 -6.7
Year 3 -6.3
Year 4 -2.6
Year 5 -8.5

Luka
Year 1 +0.4
Year 2 +4.2
Year 3 +0.3
Year 4 +3.4
Year 5 -2.7

Note that in each of Luka's first 4 years, he had a team that was a positive +/- when he was on the bench. This is actually pretty much by definition what solid supporting casts look like. The perception that they were weak really had everything to do with how big Luka's box score and how small his teammates were...but the former is not unrelated to the latter.

Finally in Year 5 Luka has an actual weak supporting cast, basically comparable by these numbers to the best one LeBron had in his first 5 years...which LeBron took to the finals (admittedly in a weak east). Of course calling the current Mavs a weak supporting cast doesn't tell the whole story, because they have Kyrie Irving, and they have Kyrie Irving because he's a bigger star than Luka's previous teammates and it was thought it would make the team better not worse.

None of this means Mavs fans don't have a right to be frustrated.
And none of it means that Luka's outlier ability to scale his primacy in the playoffs won't lead to chips.

But in general, I have to object to the idea that Luka's had it particularly bad in his first few years. He was actually really well set up to lead a contender early in his career in a way that Cleveland didn't do for LeBron. Didn't happen in the regular season at least.

I'm not gonna note anything, you're an american and you don't understand how +/- works. You took that stat from Euroleague 2 decades ago and you still have no clue what it means.

[Doctor MJ]

This thread is clearly part of a silly agenda based on the replies by the OP in their own thread which is pretty sad and definitely pointless.

But counting stats aside, there really isn't a pro-Luka argument to be made. If you want to take just the first 2 years, its Luka, then you can start to argue if you look at the first 3 years but then Lebron starts to pull clearly away.

None of that means Luka hasn't had a great start to his career. Clearly he has. But he's being compared to the GOAT here.

And also, and importantly we have plenty of data that tells us how much both of them elevate teammates. I know Doc is a +/- guy, but that's ignoring that over the last 3 years Luka laps the league in the quality of shots created stat. And how the top 2 PNR combos last year both involved Luka. 3 of the top 5 volume 3 point shooters in terms of percentage of 3's that were open or wide open were Luka's teammates.

Many reasonable points here from a man keeping perspective despite his fandom.

I will say though: "+/- ignores quality of shots created". I wouldn't say that. It's certainly true that I've given a super-simple stat for folks to chew on, but Luka's ability to add value by creating shots is certainly factored in implicitly to the regressed versions of these stats.