70sFan wrote:Cool!
1960
1. George Mikan
2. Bob Davies
3. Arnie Risen
4. Jim Pollard
5. Slater Martin
6. Paul Seymour
7. Vern Mikkelsen
8. Bobby Wanzer
9. Ed Macauley
10. Neil Johnston
11. Harry Gallatin
12. Sweetwater Clifton
13. George Yardley
14. Alex Groza
15. Joe Fulks
16. Maurice Stokes
No major disagreements, how many players from that list will you consider from that list? I think the top 3 have strong arguments, not sure about the rest of top 10 though.
I think probably only Mikan gets in the Top 100, but I'll advocate for Davies if the 100 aligns enough with my own thoughts to give me the opportunity.
70sFan wrote:1965
1. Bob Pettit
2. Dolph Schayes
3. Paul Arizin
4. Al Cervi
5. Bill Sharman
6. Larry Foust
7. Carl Braun
8. Tom Heinsohn
9. Max Zaslofsky
10. Frank Ramsey
11. Clyde Lovellette
12. Kenny Sears
13. Gene Shue
A bit high on Cervi (we had this discussion before), a bit low on Lovellette. Not sure about Braun vs Heinsohn, so would love to hear your explaination.
Overall, I think the top 6-8 should compete for the top 100.
Yup, I'm high on Cervi and low on Lovellette.
I'm impressed by Braun's career. The Knicks through the '50s had a lot of good years, and out of all their players, it seems that Braun - when he was available (military service) - was the one who they swore by. Fundamentally solid, capable of being higher or lower primacy, good attitude, fantastic height for a guard.
Heinsohn is really tricky because he was a major part of those Celtic teams, but the thing that was his job, he did inefficiently. It raises the question of whether a lot of other guys could have done what he did.
In the end, the fact that Heinsohn actually did it - that Auerbach swore by him - counts for a good deal, but I tend to put him below other "swore by" guys with less obvious issues.
I expect the Top 3 guys here will make the 100. I also love Sharman and am not opposed to him making it. I doubt Cervi has a shot, and so much of what he did is in the NBL, I don't know if I'll even try to get him nominated...but he's arguably the second best player of his era.
70sFan wrote:1970
1. Bill Russell
2. Cliff Hagan
3. Sam Jones
4. Bob Cousy
5. Larry Costello
6. Tom Gola
7. KC Jones
8. Jack Twyman
9. Rudy LaRusso
10. Richie Guerin
11. Red Kerr
12. Willie Naulls
I think I'd have Cousy ahead of Jones on my list, mostly due to slightly longer prime. The last time I ranked them using CORP evaluation, Cousy came out around 20 spots higher than Jones.
I can be a bit biased, but I think Guerin has a case to be as high as top 8.
Overall, top 5 guys should compete for top 100, not sure about the rest though.
So Cousy vs (Sam) Jones is a tricky one, and a tricky one specifically based on the new criteria I'm using.
Based on my own personal POY shares, Cousy is a considerably bigger deal than Jones. That's a good reason to put him ahead.
But I literally think Jones was the 2nd most important player in the great Celtic dynasty, and while the pre-Russell years could be argued to put Cousy ahead of Jones, I don't really think Cousy's issue here is that he aged out. Jones was a more valuable player in his 30s than Cousy was in his 30s, and it's not because Jones was taking on a small role. It was because his 20+ PPG style of play worked against contemporary competition, and Cousy's didn't.
70sFan wrote:1975
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jerry West
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Willis Reed
6. Zelmo Beaty
7. Hal Greer
8. Chet Walker
9. Lenny Wilkens
10. Dave DeBusschere
11. Bailey Howell
12. Dick Barnett
13. Jerry Lucas
14. Gus Johnson
15. Walt Bellamy
Quite strong company. Interesting to see Beaty that high, I think I should take a closer look on his career. Barnett over Lucas is probably controversial, but I don't think it's bad really. The one big disagreement is Bellamy that low - I know his stats overrate his impact, but I'd have him clearly ahead of Barnett/Lucas/Johnson tier.
I think this class has a lot of talent and even players outside top 10 could get some consideration for top 100.
Yeah, incredible talent in this one. I think there's something of a gap after the Top 5, but I'm actually big on guys like Beaty, Walker, Howell & Barnett too.
I'd emphasize with Beaty that he was excellent in the NBA playing on great teams, and then in the ABA, he really was something of a wizard who just knew how to play. Barry got more hype, and was certainly the stronger scorer, but I think what Beaty demonstrated was more impressive. Cunningham won the MVP for his regular season work, but again, I think Beaty really deserves to be seen as achieved more.
Re: Barnett vs Lucas. I think Barnett needs to be understood as the #3 Knick on the '70 Knicks champion as 33 year old much older than the rest of the core. Had he maintained this prominence in their 2nd chip I think he'd be much more celebrated today...but he was 36, so it's understandable why he was a low minutes guy at this point.
I also think people should at least be aware that in the renegade ABL, Barnett was the star of the championship team. This wasn't a guy who only excelled as a role player, he just had an NBA team decide to use him as their star. He started in Syracuse during the Schayes years and can be said to have "lost out" to Hal Greer as the franchise player going forward (I don't know how that played out, but I'm not trying to argue for Barnett over Greer), then he went to the ABL and was a star, then he went to the Lakers with West & Baylor, then the Knicks.
Lucas is really tough. I think we have to wonder if he could have achieved far more than he did had he not ended up on Oscar's team, and when I started out looking into basketball history, I actually held this against Oscar to a degree. But the more I got access to data, the harder it was to make a case for Lucas.
People have a tendency to say Lucas proved himself on the Knicks, but he was a bench guy on the '73 chip despite being younger than Barnett was on the superior '70 champion. Lucas deserves credit for what he did, but I don't think people would see it as that big of a deal if Lucas wasn't this mega-pre-NBA prospect.
Re: Bellamy. Yeah, I may have him too low. He was a very capable volume scorer, and maybe he just got unlucky playing on bad teams.
70sFan wrote:1980
1. Walt Frazier
2. Rick Barry
3. John Havlicek
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Mel Daniels
6. Billy Cunningham
7. Roger Brown
8. Gail Goodrich
9. Earl Monroe
10. Louie Dampier
11. Nate Thurmond
12. Pete Maravich
My huge disagreement is Thurmond this low. I really need justification of that, if you don't mind. To me, he'd easily inside top 5. I would also change Frazier/Barry/Havlicek order a bit, I also think Hawkins is overrated here (definitely wouldn't put him ahead of Billy).
Out of these guys, I think top 6 + Thurmond can get top 100 talks, likely nobody else though.
Yeah, we've got a big disagreement with Thurmond.
I do see Thurmond as the #3 defensive big of his era comparing peak, probably the #1 big man individual defender, and quite possibly the #2 consistent-prime defender of his era. That seems like that should make him rank pretty high.
Offensively of course, he's not great. Had he played in another era I think we know he'd shoot a lot less, and this would be more valuable. Not looking to be super puritanical punishing him for that inefficiency, but what it does mean is that I just never end up seeing him as much of a candidate for POY shares. Now, I have a bunch of guys ahead of him here who also aren't really POY share guys, but a lot of these guys have key roles on champion teams and have signs of more all around basketball playing talents.
Something I'll acknowledge here is that while I'm not trying to punish Thurmond for the Warriors winning the title without him, I'm sure I'd see Thurmond differently if I saw him as one of the two stars on that championship team.
Re: Hawkins. So I think everyone knows I'm high on Connie and I don't really expect to persuade many folks of anything drastic. I see Hawkins at his best as a serious candidate for the best offensive player in the world, and I think what he did leading the Pipers to the championship is astonishing. I completely understand people who aren't that impressed by the first year of the ABA, but what I see from Hawkins here is something far more than just a volume scorer.
Re: Hawkins, Cunningham, Brown. So these guys all grew up playing against each other in Brooklyn and I tend to associate them. Cunningham was respected by the Black ballers in the area (they even said he played Black, which they meant as a compliment), but I definitely didn't get the impression that Cunningham was seen as better than Brown, let alone Hawkins.
Hence, I actually have the debate between Cunningham and Brown on my list, and of course, those two did play against each other in the ABA, but by that time Brown was on the decline. Between Cunningham's years in the NBA and staying a star to later point of the ABA, I'm inclined to give Cunningham the nod...but I don't think he ever did anything anywhere near as impressive as what was seen from Hawk.
70sFan wrote:1985
1. Dave Cowens
2. Wes Unseld
3. Elvin Hayes
4. Tiny Archibald
5. Bob Dandridge
6. Bob Lanier
7. Dan Issel
8. George McGinnis
9. David Thompson
10. Paul Westphal
11. Spencer Haywood
Lanier that low is interesting, I'd have him probably at the top to be honest. I think Westphal could be argued over Thompson. I think all of the top 10 could get some consideration in the project, what do you think?
Lanier's always a tough one to peg. I think it's quite reasonable to have literally on top of the list, but with his limited team success it's iffy for me. Again not trying to penalize a guy based on winning bias, but when I go through year by year POY-style, he didn't get those spots. I welcome arguments to help me better understand what he was achieving.
In terms of Top 10 consideration, I think they're all candidates and they might have all made the list before. I feel like things get iffy after 7.
70sFan wrote:1990
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. George Gervin
5. Bobby Jones
6. Bill Walton
7. Bob McAdoo
8. Dennis Johnson
9. Marques Johnson
10. Gus Williams
Another very strong class. I won't talk about Walton, he's very tough to rate. I think all of the top 10 could get into top 100, would you agree?
I believe Gus made the Top 100 and neither Dennis nor Marques did. My guess is that none or one of them will make it this time.
70sFan wrote:1995
1. Larry Bird
2. Moses Malone
3. Kevin McHale
4. Isiah Thomas
5. James Worthy
6. Sidney Moncrief
7. Larry Nance
8. Mo Cheeks
9. Bill Laimbeer
10. Jack Sikma
11. Alex English
12. Bernard King
No Dantley...
Interesting group of players. I'd have English easily higher, I wouldn't have King that high. Overall, all besides King should get consideration for top 100.
Dantley was a literal mistake. Somehow when I did the analysis I missed him. I tend to be a bit of a Dantley to be clear, but he definitely should be on the list.
My placement of English & King, along with my skepticism toward Dantley, tells a story of not being that excited at the volume scorers. King obviously would do better without health issues.
70sFan wrote:2000
1. Magic Johnson
2. Charles Barkley
3. Clyde Drexler
4. Robert Parish
5. Dennis Rodman
6. Kevin Johnson
7. Joe Dumars
8. Buck Williams
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Mark Price
11. Mark Eaton
Cool list, no major disagreements. I think Eaton could get to the top 100, he'd probably be in my list.
Ah, now that's interesting given our disagreement on Thurmond. Eaton's a more extreme example.
I think Eaton has a real argument as being worthy of the Hall of Fame because of how singular he was, and how undeniably valuable he was a shot-blocker on defense, but in terms of career value-add, I think he's really far below the other guys here.
70sFan wrote:2005
1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Karl Malone
4. David Robinson
5. Scottie Pippen
6. Reggie Miller
7. John Stockton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Chris Mullin
10. Terry Porter
11. Horace Grant
12. Shawn Kemp
13. Tim Hardaway
Interesting to see Ewing that low, but I understand there is a wide range of his evaluations.
Top 11-12 could get there I suppose.
Pippen, Miller, Stockton & Ewing is a tough quartet for me to rank. I can see a case for any of them to be at the top and any of them to be at the bottom.
Honestly, Miller was the surprise for me. I've been a champion of his for a very long time, but I think I always had him below the other 3. When I went through year by year, I was really amazed at the way he stood out to me with his playoff performances. I knew about these before, but when forcing myself to make a ranked list, he kept placing high.
I definitely see Kemp as a candidate to make the list, and wouldn't be shocked if he moves back ahead of Grant.
I'll be surprised if anyone champions Tim Bug. He was one of my heroes growing up, and I was in many arguments putting him above KJ, but looking at things more analytically, he doesn't quite measure up.
70sFan wrote:2010
1. Gary Payton
2. Dikembe Mutombo
3. Alonzo Mourning
4. Penny Hardaway
5. Vlade Divac
6. Allen Iverson
7. Chris Webber
8. Toni Kukoc
9. Terry Cummings
10. Derek Harper
11. Mookie Blaylock
Quite weak class, top 3 are lock for 100. I'd have Iverson higher than Divac personally (probably that Penny as well). I think Webber has weak case for top 100, so 6 guys?
Incredibly weak honestly for such a recent class.
I would definitely see the Top 3 as a lock, and I expect Iverson will get in too. Penny may well too.
Re: Iverson vs Penny. I see Penny as the clear cut better player and while health hurts him, realistically he was relevant to contending basketball about as long as Iverson was.
Divac is tricky relative to these guys because he was never an MVP-candidate type. I certainly understand having him a lot lower, and would expect the fact majority to favor Webber over him. Divac impresses me more than Webber though.
70sFan wrote:2015
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Steve Nash
3. Jason Kidd
4. Ray Allen
5. Ben Wallace
6. Chauncey Billups
7. Rasheed Wallace
8. Grant Hill
9. Shawn Marion
10. Baron Davis
11. Tracy McGrady
12. Sam Cassell
13. Jermaine O'Neal
Top 7 are locks to me, then the thing gets interesting. I think I'd have Tracy a bit higher (certainly over Davis).
Most would have McGrady considerably higher so that's understandable. I don't really see his career amounting to much when all is said and done.
70sFan wrote:2020
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Manu Ginobili
7. Paul Pierce
8. Tony Parker
9. Chris Bosh
10. Vince Carter
Very strong class, all of them could get into top 100.
Yeah I think they're all locks honestly.
70sFan wrote:Active Players in 2020 who received votes
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Draymond Green
8. James Harden
9. Pau Gasol
10. Russell Westbrook
11. Dwight Howard
12. LaMarcus Aldridge
All of them should be in, only LA isn't a lock to me.
I see that Top 11 as locks. I don't see Aldridge as much of a 100 candidate to be honest.
70sFan wrote:Likely Candidates among other Active Players
1. Nikola Jokic
2. Anthony Davis
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Damian Lillard
5. Jayson Tatum
6. Joel Embiid
7. Al Horford
8. Kyle Lowry
9. Rudy Gobert
10. Devin Booker
11. Luka Doncic
I'd have Gobert much higher (easily higher than Embiid to be honest). I think Lowry and Horford are at the edge, Booker and Doncic don't have much of a case to me.
I can definitely see the case for Gobert over Embiid actually. Lowry & Horford are tricky like Divac because it's the lower peak, great long career thing.
Neither Booker nor Doncic likely to be on my list. I'm expecting so HARSH disagreement with me about Doncic though. I remember one poster some months back saying "Doncic BETTER be in the next Top 100!", so we'll see what happens.
I'd note that Doncic has only been in the league for 5 years, and it's relatively rare for someone to make it into our Top 100 that quickly (though Jokic did last time).
Judging by the 1996 comeback and the standard set by Lebron, Nash, Stockton, and Paul, I think Magic would have been massively productive in those three or four lost seasons barring major injury. It was a unique circumstance which would never happen today, and bringing him down any farther seems a little too caught up in raw value provided for how I am approaching the exercise.