Steve Nash as a historic offensive force

[lessthanjake]

Despite his two MVPs, I think it is pretty underrated just how great Steve Nash was as an offensive player. And it occurs to me that there’s actually some interesting ways to analyze his offensive dominance. Specifically, from 1996-1997 onwards, we have data that tells us teams’ offensive ratings when a guy was on the court. We can look at this info, and compare it to what league average offensive efficiency was in those particular years. Which can get us what I’d label as an “On-Court ORtg+” number, which describes how far above league average a team’s offensive efficiency was when that player was on the floor. I’ll use 100 as the base, so, for instance, an On-Court ORtg+ of 107 tells us that the player’s team’s scoring efficiency was 7% better than league average when that player was on the court.

Steve Nash grades out as being historically elite in this regard.

See below for some data on this, comparing to a bunch of great players that we have this data for (note: I made general judgment calls about what specific years to look up for players—am not trying to hide the ball on anything, so am happy to pull numbers on any year I didn’t include for a player).

It is ordered roughly by who has the highest numbers, but don’t really put too much stock in the exact order.

On-Court Offensive Rating+ for Great Players (1996-1997 onwards)

Steve Nash

2000-2001: 106.7
2001-2002: 107.9
2002-2003: 109.1
2003-2004: 110.1
2004-2005: 113.4
2005-2006: 107.5
2006-2007: 111.4
2007-2008: 110.0
2008-2009: 107.8
2009-2010: 109.4
2010-2011: 106.5
2011-2012: 104.5

Steph Curry

2012-2013: 102.5
2013-2014: 104.9
2014-2015: 110.4
2015-2016: 111.8
2016-2017: 111.3
2017-2018: 113.0
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 102.6
2021-2022: 103.4
2022-2023: 104.4

Kevin Durant

2009-2010: 103.3
2010-2011: 104.6
2011-2012: 105.5
2012-2013: 107.7
2013-2014: 105.2
2015-2016: 109.2
2016-2017: 110.5
2017-2018: 108.3
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 110.7
2021-2022: 105.2
2022-2023: 104.3

Shaquille O’Neal

1996-1997: 101.8
1997-1998: 109.9
1998-1999: 107.8
1999-2000: 103.6
2000-2001: 109.1
2001-2002: 106.8
2002-2003: 107.9
2003-2004: 105.6
2004-2005: 106.9
2005-2006: 106.5

Kawhi Leonard

2014-2015: 105.8
2015-2016: 104.8
2016-2017: 106.0
2018-2019: 106.4
2019-2020: 107.1
2020-2021: 109.7
2022-2023: 104.7

Nikola Jokic

2018-2019: 103.9
2019-2020: 104.0
2020-2021: 108.1
2021-2022: 106.1
2022-2023: 109.4

Dirk Nowitzki

2001-2002: 109.7
2002-2003: 109.7
2003-2004: 110.7
2004-2005: 106.0
2005-2006: 107.3
2006-2007: 108.5
2007-2008: 106.2
2008-2009: 103.5
2009-2010: 102.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 102.1
2012-2013: 101.0
2013-2014: 105.2
2014-2015: 104.9
2015-2016: 103.0

James Harden

2012-2013: 104.1
2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.6
2015-2016: 103.4
2016-2017: 107.5
2017-2018: 108.7
2018-2019: 107.2
2019-2020: 104.2
2020-2021: 106.2
2021-2022: 104.6
2022-2023: 105.6

Damian Lillard

2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.3
2015-2016: 104.0
2016-2017: 103.9
2017-2018: 103.1
2018-2019: 106.3
2019-2020: 105.7
2020-2021: 107.7
2022-2023: 105.7

Luka Doncic

2019-2020: 107.3
2020-2021: 105.5
2021-2022: 103.1
2022-2023: 104.4

LeBron James

2004-2005: 101.4
2005-2006: 103.4
2006-2007: 101.0
2007-2008: 101.4
2008-2009: 106.7
2009-2010: 107.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 110.0
2013-2014: 106.6
2014-2015: 109.4
2015-2016: 108.5
2016-2017: 108.8
2017-2018: 105.8
2018-2019: 101.1
2019-2020: 103.6
2020-2021: 102.4
2021-2022: 101.1
2022-2023: 103.2

Kobe Bryant

1999-2000: 104.0
2000-2001: 107.0
2001-2002: 106.0
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 104.9
2004-2005: 102.6
2005-2006: 104.8
2006-2007: 103.0
2007-2008: 106.4
2008-2009: 107.2
2009-2010: 103.7
2010-2011: 106.1
2011-2012: 102.0
2012-2013: 104.2

Michael Jordan

1996-1997: 107.0
1997-1998: 102.0

Joel Embiid

2017-2018: 105.0
2018-2019: 104.3
2019-2020: 100.2
2020-2021: 106.6
2021-2022: 104.8
2022-2023: 105.6

Giannis Antetokounmpo

2016-2017: 101.1
2017-2018: 102.6
2018-2019: 105.6
2019-2020: 104.3
2020-2021: 106.0
2021-2022: 106.0
2022-2023: 103.9

Russell Westbrook

2010-2011: 102.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 107.4
2013-2014: 106.3
2014-2015: 106.2
2015-2016: 109.0
2016-2017: 102.5
2017-2018: 104.7
2018-2019: 102.9
2019-2020: 102.0
2020-2021: 99.4
2021-2022: 98.3

Tim Duncan

1997-1998: 100.2
1998-1999: 101.5
1999-2000: 101.4
2000-2001: 104.0
2001-2002: 102.6
2002-2003: 103.5
2003-2004: 100.4
2004-2005: 105.1
2005-2006: 102.4
2006-2007: 105.4
2007-2008: 102.1
2008-2009: 101.9
2009-2010: 102.8
2010-2011: 104.5
2011-2012: 104.3
2012-2013: 103.9
2013-2014: 102.9
2014-2015: 103.1

Kevin Garnett

1997-1998: 102.1
1998-1999: 99.0
1999-2000: 102.5
2000-2001: 103.1
2001-2002: 105.3
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 105.2
2004-2005: 102.2
2005-2006: 99.2
2006-2007: 99.2
2007-2008: 105.7
2008-2009: 104.2
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 103.5
2011-2012: 100.8
2012-2013: 96.1

Jason Kidd

1997-1998: 100.7
1998-1999: 103.1
1999-2000: 101.0
2000-2001: 96.8
2001-2002: 101.0
2002-2003: 102.7
2003-2004: 100.2
2004-2005: 100.3
2005-2006: 100.8
2006-2007: 101.2
2007-2008: 100.0
2008-2009: 103.6
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 101.8

Derrick Rose

2009-2010: 97.7
2010-2011: 103.4

Overall, Steve Nash’s numbers here look the best of anyone—with Steph being the only one who is particularly close overall. Steve Nash created unprecedentedly good offense!

Of course, these numbers ignore all context. It is obviously easier to put up high numbers in this regard with better teammates, for instance. And, as with all on-off-related stats, it is a bit contingent on what the rotational strategy of the coach is. It also is certainly dependent on whether your team runs particularly offensive lineups, or focuses on putting out strong defensive units. So Nash being at the top here isn’t completely conclusive evidence of anything, but I think it is still pretty remarkable, considering who he is being compared against.

For Nash, though, I don’t think the context necessarily truly has him being much more advantaged in this regard than other players on this list. He did play with Dirk (who I think was similarly influential offensively in their years together). And he played with Amare Stoudemire for most of the other years. But there’s years in there where he did not have either of those guys, and it’s not like Amare is actually a better offensive player than a fair few of the teammates these other guys have had anyways, especially after his injuries slowed him down. Nash did play for D’Antoni and Nelson. But so have some of these other guys, and Nash’s offenses also put up big numbers with other coaches—including ones who had a lot less offensive styles.

The bottom line is that I think Nash’s offensive prowess goes underappreciated—he’s legitimately in the conversation for the best offensive player of all time IMO.

[SHAQ32]

But he only averaged 18 ppg in his prime

[dygaction]

Despite his two MVPs, I think it is pretty underrated just how great Steve Nash was as an offensive player. And it occurs to me that there’s actually some interesting ways to analyze his offensive dominance. Specifically, from 1996-1997 onwards, we have data that tells us teams’ offensive ratings when a guy was on the court. We can look at this info, and compare it to what league average offensive efficiency was in those particular years. Which can get us what I’d label as an “On-Court ORtg+” number, which describes how far above league average a team’s offensive efficiency was when that player was on the floor. I’ll use 100 as the base, so, for instance, an On-Court ORtg+ of 107 tells us that the player’s team’s scoring efficiency was 7% better than league average when that player was on the court.

Steve Nash grades out as being historically elite in this regard.

See below for some data on this, comparing to a bunch of great players that we have this data for (note: I made general judgment calls about what specific years to look up for players—am not trying to hide the ball on anything, so am happy to pull numbers on any year I didn’t include for a player).

It is ordered roughly by who has the highest numbers, but don’t really put too much stock in the exact order.

On-Court Offensive Rating+ for Great Players (1996-1997 onwards)

Steve Nash

2000-2001: 106.7
2001-2002: 107.9
2002-2003: 109.1
2003-2004: 110.1
2004-2005: 113.4
2005-2006: 107.5
2006-2007: 111.4
2007-2008: 110.0
2008-2009: 107.8
2009-2010: 109.4
2010-2011: 106.5
2011-2012: 104.5

Steph Curry

2012-2013: 102.5
2013-2014: 104.9
2014-2015: 110.4
2015-2016: 111.8
2016-2017: 111.3
2017-2018: 113.0
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 102.6
2021-2022: 103.4
2022-2023: 104.4

Kevin Durant

2009-2010: 103.3
2010-2011: 104.6
2011-2012: 105.5
2012-2013: 107.7
2013-2014: 105.2
2015-2016: 109.2
2016-2017: 110.5
2017-2018: 108.3
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 110.7
2021-2022: 105.2
2022-2023: 104.3

Shaquille O’Neal

1996-1997: 101.8
1997-1998: 109.9
1998-1999: 107.8
1999-2000: 103.6
2000-2001: 109.1
2001-2002: 106.8
2002-2003: 107.9
2003-2004: 105.6
2004-2005: 106.9
2005-2006: 106.5

Kawhi Leonard

2014-2015: 105.8
2015-2016: 104.8
2016-2017: 106.0
2018-2019: 106.4
2019-2020: 107.1
2020-2021: 109.7
2022-2023: 104.7

Nikola Jokic

2018-2019: 103.9
2019-2020: 104.0
2020-2021: 108.1
2021-2022: 106.1
2022-2023: 109.4

Dirk Nowitzki

2001-2002: 109.7
2002-2003: 109.7
2003-2004: 110.7
2004-2005: 106.0
2005-2006: 107.3
2006-2007: 108.5
2007-2008: 106.2
2008-2009: 103.5
2009-2010: 102.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 102.1
2012-2013: 101.0
2013-2014: 105.2
2014-2015: 104.9
2015-2016: 103.0

James Harden

2012-2013: 104.1
2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.6
2015-2016: 103.4
2016-2017: 107.5
2017-2018: 108.7
2018-2019: 107.2
2019-2020: 104.2
2020-2021: 106.2
2021-2022: 104.6
2022-2023: 105.6

Damian Lillard

2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.3
2015-2016: 104.0
2016-2017: 103.9
2017-2018: 103.1
2018-2019: 106.3
2019-2020: 105.7
2020-2021: 107.7
2022-2023: 105.7

LeBron James

2004-2005: 101.4
2005-2006: 103.4
2006-2007: 101.0
2007-2008: 101.4
2008-2009: 106.7
2009-2010: 107.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 110.0
2013-2014: 106.6
2014-2015: 109.4
2015-2016: 108.5
2016-2017: 108.8
2017-2018: 105.8
2018-2019: 101.1
2019-2020: 103.6
2020-2021: 102.4
2021-2022: 101.1
2022-2023: 103.2

Kobe Bryant

1999-2000: 104.0
2000-2001: 107.0
2001-2002: 106.0
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 104.9
2004-2005: 102.6
2005-2006: 104.8
2006-2007: 103.0
2007-2008: 106.4
2008-2009: 107.2
2009-2010: 103.7
2010-2011: 106.1
2011-2012: 102.0
2012-2013: 104.2

Michael Jordan

1996-1997: 107.0
1997-1998: 102.0

Joel Embiid

2017-2018: 105.0
2018-2019: 104.3
2019-2020: 100.2
2020-2021: 106.6
2021-2022: 104.8
2022-2023: 105.6

Giannis Antetokounmpo

2016-2017: 101.1
2017-2018: 102.6
2018-2019: 105.6
2019-2020: 104.3
2020-2021: 106.0
2021-2022: 106.0
2022-2023: 103.9

Russell Westbrook

2010-2011: 102.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 107.4
2013-2014: 106.3
2014-2015: 106.2
2015-2016: 109.0
2016-2017: 102.5
2017-2018: 104.7
2018-2019: 102.9
2019-2020: 102.0
2020-2021: 99.4
2021-2022: 98.3

Tim Duncan

1997-1998: 100.2
1998-1999: 101.5
1999-2000: 101.4
2000-2001: 104.0
2001-2002: 102.6
2002-2003: 103.5
2003-2004: 100.4
2004-2005: 105.1
2005-2006: 102.4
2006-2007: 105.4
2007-2008: 102.1
2008-2009: 101.9
2009-2010: 102.8
2010-2011: 104.5
2011-2012: 104.3
2012-2013: 103.9
2013-2014: 102.9
2014-2015: 103.1

Kevin Garnett

1997-1998: 102.1
1998-1999: 99.0
1999-2000: 102.5
2000-2001: 103.1
2001-2002: 105.3
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 105.2
2004-2005: 102.2
2005-2006: 99.2
2006-2007: 99.2
2007-2008: 105.7
2008-2009: 104.2
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 103.5
2011-2012: 100.8
2012-2013: 96.1

Jason Kidd

1997-1998: 100.7
1998-1999: 103.1
1999-2000: 101.0
2000-2001: 96.8
2001-2002: 101.0
2002-2003: 102.7
2003-2004: 100.2
2004-2005: 100.3
2005-2006: 100.8
2006-2007: 101.2
2007-2008: 100.0
2008-2009: 103.6
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 101.8

Derrick Rose

2009-2010: 97.7
2010-2011: 103.4

Overall, Steve Nash’s numbers here look the best of anyone—with Steph being the only one who is particularly close overall. Steve Nash created unprecedentedly good offense!

Of course, these numbers ignore all context. It is obviously easier to put up high numbers in this regard with better teammates, for instance. And, as with all on-off-related stats, it is a bit contingent on what the rotational strategy of the coach is. It also is certainly dependent on whether your team runs particularly offensive lineups, or focuses on putting out strong defensive units. So Nash being at the top here isn’t completely conclusive evidence of anything, but I think it is still pretty remarkable, considering who he is being compared against.

For Nash, though, I don’t think the context necessarily truly has him being much more advantaged in this regard than other players on this list. He did play with Dirk (who I think was similarly influential offensively in their years together). And he played with Amare Stoudemire for most of the other years. But there’s years in there where he did not have either of those guys, and it’s not like Amare is actually a better offensive player than a fair few of the teammates these other guys have had anyways, especially after his injuries slowed him down. Nash did play for D’Antoni and Nelson. But so have some of these other guys, and Nash’s offenses also put up big numbers with other coaches—including ones who had a lot less offensive styles.

The bottom line is that I think Nash’s offensive prowess goes underappreciated—he’s legitimately in the conversation for the best offensive player of all time IMO.

Nash is almost universally viewed as top 5 ATG offensive players and is top 3 for many, so I don't think his offensive prowess goes underappreciated.

[lessthanjake]

Despite his two MVPs, I think it is pretty underrated just how great Steve Nash was as an offensive player. And it occurs to me that there’s actually some interesting ways to analyze his offensive dominance. Specifically, from 1996-1997 onwards, we have data that tells us teams’ offensive ratings when a guy was on the court. We can look at this info, and compare it to what league average offensive efficiency was in those particular years. Which can get us what I’d label as an “On-Court ORtg+” number, which describes how far above league average a team’s offensive efficiency was when that player was on the floor. I’ll use 100 as the base, so, for instance, an On-Court ORtg+ of 107 tells us that the player’s team’s scoring efficiency was 7% better than league average when that player was on the court.

Steve Nash grades out as being historically elite in this regard.

See below for some data on this, comparing to a bunch of great players that we have this data for (note: I made general judgment calls about what specific years to look up for players—am not trying to hide the ball on anything, so am happy to pull numbers on any year I didn’t include for a player).

It is ordered roughly by who has the highest numbers, but don’t really put too much stock in the exact order.

On-Court Offensive Rating+ for Great Players (1996-1997 onwards)

Steve Nash

2000-2001: 106.7
2001-2002: 107.9
2002-2003: 109.1
2003-2004: 110.1
2004-2005: 113.4
2005-2006: 107.5
2006-2007: 111.4
2007-2008: 110.0
2008-2009: 107.8
2009-2010: 109.4
2010-2011: 106.5
2011-2012: 104.5

Steph Curry

2012-2013: 102.5
2013-2014: 104.9
2014-2015: 110.4
2015-2016: 111.8
2016-2017: 111.3
2017-2018: 113.0
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 102.6
2021-2022: 103.4
2022-2023: 104.4

Kevin Durant

2009-2010: 103.3
2010-2011: 104.6
2011-2012: 105.5
2012-2013: 107.7
2013-2014: 105.2
2015-2016: 109.2
2016-2017: 110.5
2017-2018: 108.3
2018-2019: 109.4
2020-2021: 110.7
2021-2022: 105.2
2022-2023: 104.3

Shaquille O’Neal

1996-1997: 101.8
1997-1998: 109.9
1998-1999: 107.8
1999-2000: 103.6
2000-2001: 109.1
2001-2002: 106.8
2002-2003: 107.9
2003-2004: 105.6
2004-2005: 106.9
2005-2006: 106.5

Kawhi Leonard

2014-2015: 105.8
2015-2016: 104.8
2016-2017: 106.0
2018-2019: 106.4
2019-2020: 107.1
2020-2021: 109.7
2022-2023: 104.7

Nikola Jokic

2018-2019: 103.9
2019-2020: 104.0
2020-2021: 108.1
2021-2022: 106.1
2022-2023: 109.4

Dirk Nowitzki

2001-2002: 109.7
2002-2003: 109.7
2003-2004: 110.7
2004-2005: 106.0
2005-2006: 107.3
2006-2007: 108.5
2007-2008: 106.2
2008-2009: 103.5
2009-2010: 102.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 102.1
2012-2013: 101.0
2013-2014: 105.2
2014-2015: 104.9
2015-2016: 103.0

James Harden

2012-2013: 104.1
2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.6
2015-2016: 103.4
2016-2017: 107.5
2017-2018: 108.7
2018-2019: 107.2
2019-2020: 104.2
2020-2021: 106.2
2021-2022: 104.6
2022-2023: 105.6

Damian Lillard

2013-2014: 106.1
2014-2015: 104.3
2015-2016: 104.0
2016-2017: 103.9
2017-2018: 103.1
2018-2019: 106.3
2019-2020: 105.7
2020-2021: 107.7
2022-2023: 105.7

LeBron James

2004-2005: 101.4
2005-2006: 103.4
2006-2007: 101.0
2007-2008: 101.4
2008-2009: 106.7
2009-2010: 107.6
2010-2011: 105.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 110.0
2013-2014: 106.6
2014-2015: 109.4
2015-2016: 108.5
2016-2017: 108.8
2017-2018: 105.8
2018-2019: 101.1
2019-2020: 103.6
2020-2021: 102.4
2021-2022: 101.1
2022-2023: 103.2

Kobe Bryant

1999-2000: 104.0
2000-2001: 107.0
2001-2002: 106.0
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 104.9
2004-2005: 102.6
2005-2006: 104.8
2006-2007: 103.0
2007-2008: 106.4
2008-2009: 107.2
2009-2010: 103.7
2010-2011: 106.1
2011-2012: 102.0
2012-2013: 104.2

Michael Jordan

1996-1997: 107.0
1997-1998: 102.0

Joel Embiid

2017-2018: 105.0
2018-2019: 104.3
2019-2020: 100.2
2020-2021: 106.6
2021-2022: 104.8
2022-2023: 105.6

Giannis Antetokounmpo

2016-2017: 101.1
2017-2018: 102.6
2018-2019: 105.6
2019-2020: 104.3
2020-2021: 106.0
2021-2022: 106.0
2022-2023: 103.9

Russell Westbrook

2010-2011: 102.9
2011-2012: 105.6
2012-2013: 107.4
2013-2014: 106.3
2014-2015: 106.2
2015-2016: 109.0
2016-2017: 102.5
2017-2018: 104.7
2018-2019: 102.9
2019-2020: 102.0
2020-2021: 99.4
2021-2022: 98.3

Tim Duncan

1997-1998: 100.2
1998-1999: 101.5
1999-2000: 101.4
2000-2001: 104.0
2001-2002: 102.6
2002-2003: 103.5
2003-2004: 100.4
2004-2005: 105.1
2005-2006: 102.4
2006-2007: 105.4
2007-2008: 102.1
2008-2009: 101.9
2009-2010: 102.8
2010-2011: 104.5
2011-2012: 104.3
2012-2013: 103.9
2013-2014: 102.9
2014-2015: 103.1

Kevin Garnett

1997-1998: 102.1
1998-1999: 99.0
1999-2000: 102.5
2000-2001: 103.1
2001-2002: 105.3
2002-2003: 104.5
2003-2004: 105.2
2004-2005: 102.2
2005-2006: 99.2
2006-2007: 99.2
2007-2008: 105.7
2008-2009: 104.2
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 103.5
2011-2012: 100.8
2012-2013: 96.1

Jason Kidd

1997-1998: 100.7
1998-1999: 103.1
1999-2000: 101.0
2000-2001: 96.8
2001-2002: 101.0
2002-2003: 102.7
2003-2004: 100.2
2004-2005: 100.3
2005-2006: 100.8
2006-2007: 101.2
2007-2008: 100.0
2008-2009: 103.6
2009-2010: 102.0
2010-2011: 101.8

Derrick Rose

2009-2010: 97.7
2010-2011: 103.4

Overall, Steve Nash’s numbers here look the best of anyone—with Steph being the only one who is particularly close overall. Steve Nash created unprecedentedly good offense!

Of course, these numbers ignore all context. It is obviously easier to put up high numbers in this regard with better teammates, for instance. And, as with all on-off-related stats, it is a bit contingent on what the rotational strategy of the coach is. It also is certainly dependent on whether your team runs particularly offensive lineups, or focuses on putting out strong defensive units. So Nash being at the top here isn’t completely conclusive evidence of anything, but I think it is still pretty remarkable, considering who he is being compared against.

For Nash, though, I don’t think the context necessarily truly has him being much more advantaged in this regard than other players on this list. He did play with Dirk (who I think was similarly influential offensively in their years together). And he played with Amare Stoudemire for most of the other years. But there’s years in there where he did not have either of those guys, and it’s not like Amare is actually a better offensive player than a fair few of the teammates these other guys have had anyways, especially after his injuries slowed him down. Nash did play for D’Antoni and Nelson. But so have some of these other guys, and Nash’s offenses also put up big numbers with other coaches—including ones who had a lot less offensive styles.

The bottom line is that I think Nash’s offensive prowess goes underappreciated—he’s legitimately in the conversation for the best offensive player of all time IMO.

Nash is almost universally viewed as top 5 ATG offensive players and is top 3 for many, so I don't think his offensive prowess goes underappreciated.

You must have encountered very different people than me, then, since I’ve been saying that sort of thing for over a decade now, and been almost entirely met with strong (and often outright dismissive) disagreement. But it’s possible that’s just idiosyncratic coincidence and that my views on him are more common that I thought. If so, then that’s great!

[Doctor MJ]

Nash is almost universally viewed as top 5 ATG offensive players and is top 3 for many, so I don't think his offensive prowess goes underappreciated.

You must have encountered very different people than me, then, since I’ve been saying that sort of thing for over a decade now, and been almost entirely met with strong (and often outright dismissive) disagreement. But it’s possible that’s just idiosyncratic coincidence and that my views on him are more common that I thought. If so, then that’s great![/quote]

Great OP and yeah, if you're talking about basketball conversation in general, Nash remains very underrated.

However on the PC board, I'd say in general we're much close to how you think.

[rk2023]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

[OhayoKD]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

[lessthanjake]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

I think this is a good point, but I’d note that it’s also similarly true of Steph. Steph had historically great offenses without Durant, and to the extent one wants to say it doesn’t count for these purposes because he still had Klay Thompson, I’d note that Magic still had Worthy even when Kareem was no longer there. The list of players that have had a great offense without *any* really good offensive players would be even shorter (in part of course because a lot of guys always or almost always had one).

On that note, though, as you reference, the Suns’ offensive efficiency without Amare in the 2005-2006 season & playoffs was definitely pretty wild when you look at who was on the team. The offensive efficiency was a relative drop off from when they had Amare, of course, but was still super elite. Genuinely perhaps the most impressive number in here, especially when we taken into account that the offensive production actually even went up in the playoffs. I’ve frequently seen people claim that Nash’s MVP that year was really weak and undeserved, and I think people who say that either didn’t pay attention back then or are too young, because what Nash did that year offensively was incredible.

[OhayoKD]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

I think this is a good point, but I’d note that it’s also similarly true of Steph. Steph had historically great offenses without Durant, and to the extent one wants to say it doesn’t count because he still had Klay Thompson, I’d note that Magic still had Worthy even when Kareem was no longer there. The list of players that have had a great offense without *any* really good offensive players would be even shorter (in part of course because a lot of guys always or almost always had one).

On that note, though, as you reference, the Suns’ offensive efficiency without Amare in the 2005-2006 season & playoffs was definitely pretty wild when you look at who was on the team. The offensive efficiency was a relative drop off from when they had Amare, of course, but was still super elite. Genuinely perhaps the most impressive number in here, especially when we taken into account that the offensive production actually even went up in the playoffs. I’ve frequently seen people claim that Nash’s MVP that year was really weak and undeserved, and I think people who say that either didn’t pay attention back then or are too young, because what Nash did that year offensively was incredible.

Fair though it's worth noting Curry's offenses weren't nearly as impressive in the playoffs. (Yes I realize, I included "rs" here too).

A distinction that does hold for those 3 is leading great offenses with different coaches/and different systems(not really true with the other 4)

[cupcakesnake]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

[lessthanjake]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

Yeah, just as a viewer who watched a lot of both Nash and Jokic, I’ve gotten a strong feeling when watching them that something good was going to happen anytime they got the ball. That level of comfort I had as a viewer when watching Nash’s and Jokic’s teams on offense (particularly if rooting for their team!) has been very unique in my experience as a basketball viewer. The numbers basically just bear out something that already felt intrinsically obvious to me. Their teams just get almost constant good looks when they’re on the floor. Which is why I think people who deny that for either player must not have really paid attention to them (or, in the case of Nash, perhaps are too young to have watched him).

Doesn’t seem like there’s much pushback from this community on this, which is good to see!

[cupcakesnake]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

Yeah, just as a viewer who watched a lot of both Nash and Jokic, I’ve gotten a strong feeling when watching them that something good was going to happen anytime they got the ball. That level of comfort I had as a viewer when watching Nash’s and Jokic’s teams on offense (particularly if rooting for their team!) has been very unique in my experience as a basketball viewer. The numbers basically just bear out something that already felt intrinsically obvious to me. Their teams just get almost constant good looks when they’re on the floor. Which is why I think people who deny that for either player must not have really paid attention to them (or, in the case of Nash, perhaps are too young to have watched him).

Doesn’t seem like there’s much pushback from this community on this, which is good to see!

Yep I feel/have felt the exact same. No player ever made me (as a fan) feel safer during an offensive possession than Nash. No player can guarantee a bucket for his team, but with Nash, I knew the Suns were going to try something good.

As a fan of passing bigs, I liked Jokic as soon as he came into the league, but had no idea what he was going to become. I think around 2018 or 2019 is when I started feeling that same Nash-ty feeling with Jokic where it's just like: I just trust this guy to problem solve and try something smart. Then when Jokic really started pushing himself as a scoring threat, I thought: I don't think it's possible for Jokic not the be the most dangerous offensive player on the floor in a playoff series, even if he's playing prime Kawhi or Durant. Sam as Nash having that paralyzing effect with his shooting threat and passing synergy, Jokic was going to terrify the defense with his post-scoring and paralyze with his passing. Oh and if that's not enough? Okay I counter with having the softest shooting touch ever seen.

It's just an insanely rare decision-making ability for a star player to have. There are probably some role-players that have this decision-making ability but don't have the tools to constantly hurt a defense with it. I didn't grow up watching Magic and Bird (though I have now watched dozens of full games and playoff series), but I think they also had it. Magic could always put the ball in the most punishing place, though his lack of range would occasionally put him at a disadvantage. Bird could just toy with people, though sometimes against great playoff defenses, he had a hard time scoring inside the paint. Then you look at someone like Lebron, who has greater athletic gifts by far than any of these guys, and is also a great passer and decision-maker. Though I've always found with Lebron he was never in that S-tier of decision making. He's always been prone to random bouts of blind-scoring aggression: mixing in random bad pull-ups because you got to be like Mike/Kobe.

[Bad Gatorade]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

Yup, this is arguably my favourite beautifully simple, yet beautifully sweet reason why Nash is in contention for being the offensive GOAT. He feels almost irrefutably top 5 all time in both categories, and whilst there might be other players such as Jokic or Bird that one could consider here, until Steph Curry came along and decided to drain 3s like he was playing NBA Jam, Nash was quite arguably the best ever on both fronts. Couple that in with his airtight layup finishes, consistently running GOAT level offences and doing most of this off the dribble...

Yeah, Nash was remarkable.

[lessthanjake]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

Yup, this is arguably my favourite beautifully simple, yet beautifully sweet reason why Nash is in contention for being the offensive GOAT. He feels almost irrefutably top 5 all time in both categories, and whilst there might be other players such as Jokic or Bird that one could consider here, until Steph Curry came along and decided to drain 3s like he was playing NBA Jam, Nash was quite arguably the best ever on both fronts. Couple that in with his airtight layup finishes, consistently running GOAT level offences and doing most of this off the dribble...

Yeah, Nash was remarkable.

Yeah, I think this actually often gets lost amidst the wave of incredible shooting we’ve had in the last decade, especially from Steph. During the time Nash played, I actually thought there was a good argument that he was the best pure shooter in league history. His three-point shooting % was amongst the very highest ever while taking a higher proportion of his threes off the dribble than almost anyone did back then and certainly more than any of the few guys who had a higher 3PT% (for reference on this: In his time at Phoenix, only 42.6% of his three-point shots were assisted, which is lower even than present-day guys like Dame and Steph). His FT% was #1 all time (and is now #2 behind Steph). And in his prime he basically made mid-range shots at a 48-50% clip from all ranges—which is up there amongst the very top mid-range shooters ever. Steph has of course surpassed him as a shooter, but I definitely agree that Nash is a top 5 pure shooter of all time. And, as you say, when you add top 5 passing as well, it’s easy to see how he’d end up arguably the GOAT offensive player.

What’s also a bit crazy about this is that it seems in retrospect like Nash probably left something on the table offensively, by not leaning into his shooting ability more. Given his all-time level shooting ability and what we know now in terms of modern offensive strategies, his teams very likely could’ve been even more efficient if he’d taken a lot more of those off the dribble threes off a pick and roll. And those Suns were flirting with more modern offense. But, as he himself has noted, there just was a bit of a wall in terms of basketball thinking that prevented him from leaning all the way into that more modern way of playing. That said, there’s perhaps a trade-off there, in that perhaps his teammates wouldn’t have gotten going as much if he’d been taking more shots like that. So we don’t know exactly how it would’ve shaken out. But I can’t help but think Nash probably could’ve been *even better* offensively.

[eminence]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

Which seasons are you thinking of for LeBron here?

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think most people on the PC board already know this. I very rarely hear an "offensive GOAT" discussion without Steve Nash getting an honourable mention.

Put this on the General Board and you might get more pushback along with less understanding of Nash's impact.

I have a hard time understanding someone watching a lot of Suns Nash, or looking at the statistical analysis, and not thinking Nash is one of the best offensive players we've ever seen. It's not even that complicated: there has simply never been a more potent blend of shooting threat and playmaking power. (Or I used to be able to say that confidently until Jokic!)

Yup, this is arguably my favourite beautifully simple, yet beautifully sweet reason why Nash is in contention for being the offensive GOAT. He feels almost irrefutably top 5 all time in both categories, and whilst there might be other players such as Jokic or Bird that one could consider here, until Steph Curry came along and decided to drain 3s like he was playing NBA Jam, Nash was quite arguably the best ever on both fronts. Couple that in with his airtight layup finishes, consistently running GOAT level offences and doing most of this off the dribble...

Yeah, Nash was remarkable.

Yeah, I think this actually often gets lost amidst the wave of incredible shooting we’ve had in the last decade, especially from Steph. During the time Nash played, I actually thought there was a good argument that he was the best pure shooter in league history. His three-point shooting % was amongst the very highest ever while taking a higher proportion of his threes off the dribble than almost anyone did back then and certainly more than any of the few guys who had a higher 3PT% (for reference on this: In his time at Phoenix, only 42.6% of his three-point shots were assisted, which is lower even than present-day guys like Dame and Steph). His FT% was #1 all time (and is now #2 behind Steph). And in his prime he basically made mid-range shots at a 48-50% clip from all ranges—which is up there amongst the very top mid-range shooters ever. Steph has of course surpassed him as a shooter, but I definitely agree that Nash is a top 5 pure shooter of all time. And, as you say, when you add top 5 passing as well, it’s easy to see how he’d end up arguably the GOAT offensive player.

What’s also a bit crazy about this is that it seems in retrospect like Nash probably left something on the table offensively, by not leaning into his shooting ability more. Given his all-time level shooting ability and what we know now in terms of modern offensive strategies, his teams very likely could’ve been even more efficient if he’d taken a lot more of those off the dribble threes off a pick and roll. And those Suns were flirting with more modern offense. But, as he himself has noted, there just was a bit of a wall in terms of basketball thinking that prevented him from leaning all the way into that more modern way of playing. That said, there’s perhaps a trade-off there, in that perhaps his teammates wouldn’t have gotten going as much if he’d been taking more shots like that. So we don’t know exactly how it would’ve shaken out. But I can’t help but think Nash probably could’ve been *even better* offensively.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24574980/what-basketball-hall-famer-steve-nash-had-flipped-pass-first-shoot-last-mindset-nba

[OhayoKD]

From the RAPM Chronology Google Sheet (dating from 1998 - 2012):

Nash's top-two seasonal scaled O-RAPM values of 10.22 and 9.82 from 2007 & 08 have only been paralleled (precisely) by 2010 Wade (10.65) and James (9.95). His 5 year sum of top O-RAPM values comes out to be 45.39, first in the 15 year database (second is James with 40.7). According to Thinking Basketball's, Nash's 5-year RAPM (I'd assume the Offensive value > the full RAPM value) of 6.8 is 7th all time - while he grades out very highly in WOWY/WOWYR studies as well.

Even with an offensive slant, the 2000s Suns team offensive results are off the charts:

2005-07: 117.4 -> 104.6 RS, 116.1 -> 108.1 PS with vs. without Nash
2006-08: 116.8 -> 104.5 RS, 113.4 -> 105 PS
2007-10: 117.8 -> 106.8 RS, 115 -> 109 PS

With this snippet of a case study in mind, I think It's quite interesting / telling and a testament to make sure to conduct a holistic analysis of pragmatic/team, tracking and efficacy, impact, and box production when analyzing players. The Box Score of 17-11 (spanning 2005 through 2010) for Nash far from tells the whole story.

With regards to the original premise, I think he would crack my top 6 (all precisely the highest macro-level) of offensive value with Johnson, Jordan, James, Curry, Jokic. While I think in a peak, prime, career sense - there is some separation(s) between the 6 [which I'll touch on more in the top 100] - it is hard for me to find an argument for another player over anybody within this grouping.

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

Which seasons are you thinking of for LeBron here?

Second-Cleveland stint and 21 year old Lebron leading a full-strength +6.5 offense(56-win srs) in 2006 without 3-point specialists

[rk2023]

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

Which seasons are you thinking of for LeBron here?

Second-Cleveland stint and 21 year old Lebron leading a full-strength +6.5 offense(56-win srs) in 2006 without 3-point specialists

The without Wade (both off-floor and DNP) #s from 2011-14 are rather impressive too.

I
Now, the question might be, "how do we know Lebron had the capacity in Miami to elevate offenses to better heights in Miami then he showed?"

While, YOU DO NOT want to take the numbers at face value, and want to keep in mind we don't always know what players Lebron was facing with Wade off, we see a drastic spike in Lebron's floor-raising performance without Wade on the court.

Right. And in mind my, whose to say that Lebron was stiff in adapting his game. Lebron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade was out.

LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012-14:

▫️ 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
▫️ 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
▫️ Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)

And if you want a bigger sample size that has the RS:

12-'14 Lebron without Wade on the floor:

34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
+9.5 rTS%
7.2 IA AST/75
39.5% from 3
67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)

(3700 Minutes Played Sample)

LeBron James in games Dwyane Wade didn’t play 2011-14 (/75):

31.8 Points / 10.3% relative to league average true shooting
7.0 assists
7.5 rebounds (1.4 offensive)

Heat record in this span was 47-17, led by:
• 10.9 Net Rating with LeBron on
• +9.2 team offensive rating relative to league average
• -1.7 team defensive rating relative to league average

[eminence]

A pretty easy argument for Johnson, Nash, and James is that they've led great rs/playoff or overall offenses without their best offensive teamamtes while the other 3 have not.

Which seasons are you thinking of for LeBron here?

Second-Cleveland stint and 21 year old Lebron leading a full-strength +6.5 offense(56-win srs) in 2006 without 3-point specialists

What does 'full-strength' mean here?

At first glance that sample must be either very small, or the offense was horrific when not at full strength.

2nd stint Cleveland strikes me as falling short of great. With the given that Steph/Jokic/MJ aren't qualifying here.

[OhayoKD]

Which seasons are you thinking of for LeBron here?

Second-Cleveland stint and 21 year old Lebron leading a full-strength +6.5 offense(56-win srs) in 2006 without 3-point specialists

What does 'full-strength' mean here?

At first glance that sample must be either very small, or the offense was horrific when not at full strength.

It means all 5 starters were in the lineup. The sample was 30 games. I'd say that's actually on the larger side.

With the given that Steph/Jokic/MJ aren't qualifying here.

We aren't qualifying the pre-kd or pre-Pippen offenses no. Rookie Jordan led a +4 offense if you swap the 5th and 7th players minute distribution but their overall record regressed so...eh. Pre-triangle a 28 game sample had the Bulls at +4 in 1988 on a 53-win team if you use post-trade. For whatever reason Ben prefers the 52-win, +2 offense they had for the full-season but I'm willing to go with E-Balla's derivation.

2nd stint Cleveland strikes me as falling short of great.

Depends on how you weigh the playoffs:

Curry:
2015 +4 (RS) +4.1(PS)
2016 +7.9(RS)+5.7(PS)
2017 +6.8(RS)+11.6 (PS)
2018 + 5.0(RS)+6.5(PS)
2019 + 5.5(RS)+5.4 (PS)
average: 5.85 (RS) 6.6(PS)
combined average: +6.2

Lebron
2013 +6.4 (RS) +7.2 (PS)
2014 +4.2 (RS) +10.6 (PS)
2015 +5.5(RS) +5.5 (PS)
2016 +4.5(RS) +12.5 (PS)
2017 +4.8 (RS) +13.7 (PS)
Average +5.1(RS) +9.9 (PS)
combined average: +7.5

jordan* (i had to use his first 5 championship seasons)
1991 +6.7(RS) +11.7 (PS)
1992 +7.3(RS) +6.5 (PS)
1993 +4.9 (RS) +9.8 (PS)
1996 +7.6 (RS) +8.6 (PS)
1997 +7.7(RS) +6.5(PS)
average +6.85 (RS) +8.6(PS)
combined average:+7.7

nash

2005 suns. +8.4(RS) +17 (PS)
2006 suns +5.3(RS) +9.5 (PS)
2007 suns +7.4(RS)+7.6 (PS)
2008 suns. +5.8(RS) + 3.1 (PS)
2010 suns +7.7(RS) +13.4 (PS)
Average +6.9(RS) + 10.1 (PS)
combined average: +8.5

Curry:
2015 +4 (RS) +4.1(PS)
2016 +7.9(RS)+5.7(PS)
2017 +6.8(RS)+11.6 (PS)
2018 + 5.0(RS)+6.5(PS)
2019 + 5.5(RS)+5.4 (PS)
average: 5.85 (RS) 6.6(PS)
combined average: +6.2

Lebron
2013 +6.4 (RS) +7.2 (PS)
2014 +4.2 (RS) +10.6 (PS)
2015 +5.5(RS) +5.5 (PS)
2016 +4.5(RS) +12.5 (PS)
2017 +4.8 (RS) +13.7 (PS)
Average +5.1(RS) +9.9 (PS)
combined average: +7.5

jordan* (i had to use his first 5 championship seasons)
1991 +6.7(RS) +11.7 (PS)
1992 +7.3(RS) +6.5 (PS)
1993 +4.9 (RS) +9.8 (PS)
1996 +7.6 (RS) +8.6 (PS)
1997 +7.7(RS) +6.5(PS)
average +6.85 (RS) +8.6(PS)
combined average:+7.7

nash

2005 suns. +8.4(RS) +17 (PS)
2006 suns +5.3(RS) +9.5 (PS)
2007 suns +7.4(RS)+7.6 (PS)
2008 suns. +5.8(RS) + 3.1 (PS)
2010 suns +7.7(RS) +13.4 (PS)
Average +6.9(RS) + 10.1 (PS)
combined average: +8.5

shaq

1998 +6.9(RS), +10.1(PS)
1999 +5.4(RS), +4.7(PS)
2000 +3.2(RS), +9.3(PS)
2001 +5.4 (RS) +13.6(PS)
2002 +4.9(RS), +6.4 (PS)
Average +5.2(RS) +8.8(PS)
combined average: +7

bird

1984 +3.3 (RS) +6.4 (PS)
1985 +4.9 (RS) +3.9 (PS)
1986 +4.6 (RS) + 8.3 (PS)
1987 +5.2 (RS) + 8.7 (PS)
1988 +7.4 (RS) +4.2 (PS)
average +5.1(RS) +6.3(PS)
combined average: +5.7

magic

1986 +6.1(RS) +6.7
1987 +7.6 (RS) +10.7
1988 +5.1(RS) +8.3
1989 +6 (RS) +9.3
1990 +5.9(RS) +8.4
Average +6.1(RS), + 8.7 (PS)
combined average: +7.4

2017 and 2016 are the 1st and 4th best relative playoff offense of the players in question here and honestly the relatively underwhelming rs results are more a result of what the Cavs look like without Lebron than with. Could knock him for missed-time but he played more than Jordan over his first 13-years in a league where the competition played less and more than Curry however you cut it.