RealGM

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:03 am**

For those that are very familiar with the ABA, stuff like Box-score stats, impact, and minutes played?

Looking at the following guards/wings the ABA definitely seemed more friendly to smaller players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/somerwi01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesla01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartege01.html

However, this was also the case for a big-man like Zelmo Beaty (his FG% improved drastically):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beatyze01.html

So much worse was the ABA actually than the NBA?

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:25 am**

It counts exactly the same as the NBA of the time. Spurs and Nuggets highlight that team success there translated to the NBA.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:57 am**

I count it for all years, but we have to take into account that the ABA was much weaker league in 1968 than in 1976.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:13 pm**

At the beginning, the ABA was a very weak league, probably equivalent to early 50s NBA. As it got more big time, by 75, it was probably close to the equivalent of the NBA outside of the train wreck that was the Virginia franchise. Of course, in my opinion, the 70s were the weakest era of the NBA outside of the 50s too. This was from a post on APBR over a decade ago:

NBA-ABA Conversion Charts

year min sco reb ast SS#
1968 .38 .64 .80 .90 782
1969 .73 .72 .85 .90 125
1970 .46 .80 .88 .90 611
1971 .74 .86 .90 .95 365
1972 .91 .90 .92 1.0 529
1973 .97 .91 .92 1.0 316
1974 .61 .92 .94 1.0 347
1975 .87 .92 .95 1.0 358
1976 .80 .92 .96 1.0 3425

The Minutes column is (NBA Min)/(ABA Min) -- averaged over the
sample for that year. In 1968, several players' rates are compared
to their last previous NBA season, which in some cases were 2-4
years prior.

Sco, Reb, and Ast are actually derived from averages of several
estimates: straight average, minutes-weighted, 3-year average, and
3-year/weighted by minutes. Then just smoothed over. 'Min' are not
smoothed, merely averaged.

Assists are so jumpy, I just crudely estimated them.

SS# is the sample size in player-games considered. Most years
(3-400 player-games) are equivalent to only 4-5 full player-seasons.
(The small 1969 sample is largely one guy, Rick Barry.)

The year of reference is the ABA season played. Whether Player X was in the NBA in 1971 and the ABA in '72; or in the ABA in '72 and NBA in '73; or in both leagues in '72; his numbers are averaged into the 1972 lot. Provided he had significant minutes in both appearances.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/APBR/message/16704

I've fired up the old growler and scribbled the conversion rates,
for your perusal. There's a lot of uncertainty, and the numbers go
in fits and starts; but there's a trend or two.

year min sco reb ast SS#
1968 .38 .64 .80 .90 782
1969 .73 .72 .85 .90 125
1970 .46 .80 .88 .90 611
1971 .74 .86 .90 .95 365
1972 .91 .90 .92 1.0 529
1973 .97 .91 .92 1.0 316
1974 .61 .92 .94 1.0 347
1975 .87 .92 .95 1.0 358
1976 .80 .92 .96 1.0 3425

The Minutes column is (NBA Min)/(ABA Min) -- averaged over the
sample for that year. In 1968, several players' rates are compared
to their last previous NBA season, which in some cases were 2-4
years prior.

Sco, Reb, and Ast are actually derived from averages of several
estimates: straight average, minutes-weighted, 3-year average, and
3-year/weighted by minutes. Then just smoothed over.

Assists are so jumpy, I just crudely estimated them.

SS# is the sample size in player-games considered. (The small 1969
sample is largely one guy: Rick Barry.)

Since 1970 was the biggest sample year between the ABA's beginning
and end; and it's the last year I'm calling it "minor-league", lets
examine the sample of comers/goers who were in the ABA that year:

Haywood, Melchionni, Barnhill, Raymond, Dove, Orms, Niemann, Olsen,
Hamilton, Warlick, Kron, Workman.

If you've only heard of the first couple, don't feel lost; these are
in descending order of ABA minutes for 1970, and most were not
impact players.

Of this dirty dozen, only Tommy Kron got fewer ABA minutes than he
had in the NBA.

Of the 12, only Hamilton and Warlick (bit players, too) had a better
effective shooting % in the NBA.

Those same 2 were the only ones with better scoring rates in the NBA.

Melchionni and Barnhill had better rebound rates in the NBA, along
with Kron. These guys were guards with few rebounds in either
league.

Only Warlick had a better assist rate in the NBA.

In all, their minutes more than doubled in the ABA (or halved, if
they were going the other way). Eff% averaged 8% higher in the
ABA. Scoring rates were only 74% as good in the NBA; Rebounding
87%; Assists 68%.

These are per-minute rates. Compounded by the doubling of minutes,
the actual production was more than twice as great in the ABA.

From this type of evidence (player stats standardized year-by-year),
I can't agree that ABA competition was equal to NBA competition, in
1970.

But if you scroll back up to the chart, you'll see within 2 years
the competative difference had been cut in half.

And the 1976 figures should be strengthened for the ABA. Last year
we pretty much concurred that the dual effects of contraction (to
1977 NBA) and joining new teams might account for the majority of
the difference.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:29 pm**

Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:38 pm**

migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:46 pm**

70sFan wrote:
migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

They were also all young and not really in their prime yet and Issel was much better earlier in his career.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 1:18 pm**

migya wrote:
70sFan wrote:
migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

They were also all young and not really in their prime yet and Issel was much better earlier in his career.

Gervin and Issel weren't young really that young. Issel wasn't much better in his early career either.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 2:55 pm**

I think it should rank somewhat similarly to the NBA of that time, at least in the later years of the ABA. I wouldn’t rank it quite as high, mostly because on average we tended to see players’ stats get less good when they moved over to the NBA.

There’s also a converse question though—which is how do we rank the NBA itself in the era that the ABA existed? And I think the answer almost certainly should be that we rank achievement in the NBA in those years lower than in other years, because the NBA was lacking a significant portion of the era’s talent.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:49 pm**

70sFan wrote:
migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

All the guys but Issel were still young and moving into their prime. It's kind of like looking at 2018 and saying look how good Jokic and Giannis are doing now. One of the big differences between the ABA and NBA was that the ABA was younger. In 1968 it really hurt them in comparison, as they had no star veterans. By 1976 they had almost caught up, and their stars were much younger than the guys in the NBA.
As a result, guys like Gervin, Moses, Thompson, and Bobby Jones all did better in the NBA. Guys like Gilmore, Erving, and Issel still were in their prime and did fine.
Had the leagues not merged, the ABA had a good chance to be the better league by 1978,

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:54 pm**

WestGOAT wrote:For those that are very familiar with the ABA, stuff like Box-score stats, impact, and minutes played?

Looking at the following guards/wings the ABA definitely seemed more friendly to smaller players:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/somerwi01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonesla01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartege01.html

However, this was also the case for a big-man like Zelmo Beaty (his FG% improved drastically):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/beatyze01.html

So much worse was the ABA actually than the NBA?

I think penbeast's table and thoughts here are probably the best foundation to use.

I think the most important thing to realize is that the ABA having higher offensive efficiency didn't actually mean that teams were bad at defense. The Denver Nuggets went from a 103.4 DRtg in the final year of the ABA to a league-leading 96.1 the following year in the NBA with largely the same team.

So while it makes sense when focusing on statistical analysis to try to normalize between the two leagues, something else was going on that was causing higher ORtgs in the ABA that wasn't about fundamental defensive quality.

The obvious thing to consider is the presence of the 3-point shot to induce spacing in the ABA, but since ABA coaches had come to the 180 degree wrong conclusion that the 3-pointer wasn't an effective weapon after the early years, this seems unlikely.

In general, the ABA has a reputation for a more modern style of play with a more aggressive perimeter attack, and if teams like Denver came to the conclusion that more caution was necessary against NBA teams - whether this was actually the right tactical shift or not - that would explain it, but I won't claim to have a definitive answer here.

Posted: **Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:36 pm**

I don't think the ABA as a league should be ignored - it is an indispensable part of the NBA's history.

Having said that, I do wonder if there ought to be a distinction made between guys who played in both leagues vs guys that only ever played in the ABA. Pretty much all of the names mention in this thread so far are guys who played in both leagues, names we all know - Doc, Moses, Gervin, McGinnis, Issel, and others might be Barry, Gilmore, David Thompson, Hawkins, etc. But I think the ABA-only guys are much less known to a lot of us.

I mean, that's probably doing to take care of itself anyway - highly doubtful imo that any ABA-only guy would sniff the Top 100 - but just thought I would mention it.

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 9:10 am**

70sFan wrote:I count it for all years, but we have to take into account that the ABA was much weaker league in 1968 than in 1976.

Do you perhaps know why Zelmo Beaty's FG% improved upon his arrival in the ABA in in 1971 and 1972 season? Was there better spacing in the ABA (due to the 3-point shot)?

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 10:14 am**

WestGOAT wrote:
70sFan wrote:I count it for all years, but we have to take into account that the ABA was much weaker league in 1968 than in 1976.

Do you perhaps know why Zelmo Beaty's FG% improved upon his arrival in the ABA in in 1971 and 1972 season? Was there better spacing in the ABA (due to the 3-point shot)?

It's a combination of a few things I think:

1. Improved spacing.
2. Lack of competition at center (not surprising his production got noticeably weaker in 1972/73, when the league became stronger).
3. His own improvement (look at his FT shooting, he improved from ~75% to over 80%, which is excellent for a center).

Beaty always had good shooting touch, so further improvement during his prime was expected. At the same time, the ABA didn't have as many interior defenders as the NBA, meaning his finishing around the basket likely got more efficient without getting better as well.

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 2:59 pm**

One more thing and it's the one he (I think, could have been his coach or GM) credits for it in "Loose Balls." Zelmo had had knee problems throughout his NBA career and being forced to take a year off and giving his knees rest really seemed to help . . . for a while.

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 4:05 pm**

70sFan wrote:
migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

So, you're saying you don't discount the ABA as weaker?

And, you don't think the ABA siphoned off a large chunk of the best talent in the NBA 1967-1976?

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 5:11 pm**

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
migya wrote:Don't count it at all as it isn't the same. Maybe some years should be counted but looking at the stats, pretty much all players' decrease in numbers when going into the nba from aba.

Gervin
Issel
Thompson
Moses
B. Jones

All of them had their stats increased on staying the same in the NBA. These are just random examples, I could name more.

So, you're saying you don't discount the ABA as weaker?

And, you don't think the ABA siphoned off a large chunk of the best talent in the NBA 1967-1976?

No, I think the ABA was always weaker than the NBA. In 1973-76 period, the difference is quite small though, the ABA had strong top tier talent in that era. In the early years of the ABA, it wasn't nearly the same though.

It doesn't mean the whole 1970s was a weak era.

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 5:19 pm**

70sFan wrote:It doesn't mean the whole 1970s was a weak era.

Why doesn't the siphoning off of a huge % of top talent (ABA), and, the more than 100% expansion of the league in less than 10 years make for a weak era? Compared to, say, the 60's or 80's?

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 7:26 pm**

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:It doesn't mean the whole 1970s was a weak era.

Why doesn't the siphoning off of a huge % of top talent (ABA), and, the more than 100% expansion of the league in less than 10 years make for a weak era? Compared to, say, the 60's or 80's?

Because the league didn't exist in 1977-79 period and I don't think the ABA was significant enough to make a huge difference in 1970-71. That leaves us only with half of the decade.

You shouldn't forget that the ABA existed in the 1960s as well, if you don't differentiate the level of this league.

Posted: **Mon Jul 3, 2023 8:06 pm**

70sFan wrote:The ABA was significant enough to make a huge difference in 1970-71. That leaves us only with half of the decade.

You shouldn't forget that the ABA existed in the 1960s as well, if you don't differentiate the level of this league.

I always forget...as learned and brilliant as you are, you actually don't think the NBA has gotten substantially better & more difficult to dominate over the decades. In a somewhat non linear fashion (e.g., mid 70's were very weak, mid 90's)

It's very, very surprising, given your vast background (in both common sense and basketball history acumen).

RealGM

How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

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Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

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Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?

Re: How do you take the ABA into account when ranking players?