Higher on your All Time List: Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Jokic

[mdonnelly1989]

Which of these 3 are higher on your all time list?

[ty 4191]

Which of these 3 are higher on your all time list?

Mdonnelly,
Great question and start to a thread!!

My answer is, I have no idea. Oscar’s total domination offensively (especially), and West’s all around brilliance and domination in the playoffs and clutch abilities. How do you pick between the two?

Here is something my friend out together, however..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10I5yzjC-m9ibgJZFhAZ5tFNIPNjTgkGTLHwumgZzctU/edit

Watch on YouTube

Also, re Jokic having arguable the greatest 3 year offensive run in history.

How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated:

Consider that in the past 240 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.5/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.5/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 3 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 240 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .370 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 



Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

[mdonnelly1989]

Which of these 3 are higher on your all time list?

Mdonnelly,
Great question and start to a thread!!

My answer is, I have no idea. Oscar’s total domination offensively (especially), and West’s all around brilliance and domination in the playoffs and clutch abilities. How do you pick between the two?

Here is something my friend out together, however..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10I5yzjC-m9ibgJZFhAZ5tFNIPNjTgkGTLHwumgZzctU/edit

Watch on YouTube

Also, re Jokic having arguable the greatest 3 year offensive run in history.

How many players, period, have had a 3 year offensive peak like Jokic? Not just centers!

Updated:

Consider that in the past 240 games (including the playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

26.5/12.2/8.5 on +8.7 rTS% (while also, incidentally, leading all centers in steals by a massive margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 26.5/12.2/8.5 in ANY 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured *127* possessions per game, playing *44* MPG.

Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only *99* possessions per game, and while playing only 34.1 MPG.

And, he's sustained it for nearly 3 full seasons, including the playoffs.

That is truly astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.8 PER across the last 240 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM the last 3 seasons is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season. It falls top 6 all time among *single season* BPM totals.

3. His TS% of .660 would be third all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself (3+ 3PA/G). And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .829 from the line, an incredible .370 from three point range on very high volume for a big man. 



Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 275+ lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

I'm still not sure if you were being sarcastic lol

[rk2023]

West and Oscar have strung together a much better prime as of right now (without era adjusted longevity being factored in); no knack at Jokic as he very well could pass both in a prime/career sense should his game age well - he is just a later bloomer than either.

Peak for peak, it’s very close as well. I see Jokic and West as a 1a/b (like 13-16 all time along with Kobe/Giannis), with Oscar very closely following behind.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't have Jokic in my top 40 yet. West and Oscar I have at 11/12.

[iggymcfrack]

I’ve gained a lot of new respect for Oscar lately and I have him in the same tier as Jokić now, but this is still the Joker. Greatest offensive peak in NBA history. Took a weak (by championship standards) supporting cast on one of the most dominant playoff runs in NBA history, going 16-4 while putting up insane numbers. Leads the NBA all-time in career playoff PER. And it’s not just this year either. He has 7 straight seasons with a BPM of at least 6.9 and his last 3 are all-timers.

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed and Jokić had more playoff series wins by the time he left the bubble than Oscar had all 10 years he played in Cincinnati. Plus there’s the whole era thing. If Jokić is dominating at an unprecedented level in the best era in history, someone playing in the provincial days of the NBA needs at least one ring as an alpha dog or a point where they were the clear best player in the league to beat them and Oscar and Jerry don’t have that.

[wojoaderge]

Oscar and West are right next to each other, I give O the edge by the slimmest of margins. I think Jokic just entered my top 30 or thereabouts.

[rk2023]

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed and Jokić had more playoff series wins by the time he left the bubble than Oscar had all 10 years he played in Cincinnati.

Are we allergic to context now?

[Jaivl]

Careers:

1) Oscar 2) West 3) Jokic

Peaks:

1) Jokic 2A) West 2B) Oscar

[iggymcfrack]

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed and Jokić had more playoff series wins by the time he left the bubble than Oscar had all 10 years he played in Cincinnati.

Are we allergic to context now?

Oscar played on some bad teams, sure. I said I've recently gained a new respect for him. The WOWY stuff was incredible. But that doesn't put him ahead of someone who's taken a middling cast to the mountaintop and won at least 1 playoff series in 2 years where he had probably worse supporting casts than Oscar had in Cincinnati. And West had plenty of great opportunities to win championships on very good Lakers teams, he just couldn't get it done. My general point is that I think on average, 8 years of Jokic is going to net you more championships than 14 years of West or Oscar. In fact, given the number of teams in the league in the '60s and early '70s, one championship is below average for a random player in the league at that time. Like if you were a 12th man who played at replacement level and signed a one year contract with a completely random team every year, you'd expect to win >1 championship on average from 1961-1974. So, the championships added case favors Jokic even more with all three having one ring.

[Jaivl]

Oscar played on some bad teams, sure. I said I've recently gained a new respect for him. The WOWY stuff was incredible. But that doesn't put him ahead of someone who's taken a middling cast to the mountaintop and won at least 1 playoff series in 2 years where he had probably worse supporting casts than Oscar had in Cincinnati. And West had plenty of great opportunities to win championships on very good Lakers teams, he just couldn't get it done. My general point is that I think on average, 8 years of Jokic is going to net you more championships than 14 years of West or Oscar. In fact, given the number of teams in the league in the '60s and early '70s, one championship is below average for a random player in the league at that time. Like if you were a 12th man who played at replacement level and signed a one year contract with a completely random team every year, you'd expect to win >1 championship on average from 1961-1974. So, the championships added case favors Jokic even more with all three having one ring.

Going full "West could not get it done" from a handful of data points, half of which are basically coin-toss, one-posession Finals losses is not intellectually honest.

Like if you were a 12th man who played at replacement level and signed a one year contract with a completely random team every year, you'd expect to win >1 championship on average from 1961-1974.

Yes, one would expect that, averaging every possible random situation. The context of the league we actually saw was not random, though. If you're so keen on using CORP, you cannot really take one iteration of one of multiple different situations and act like it's the only possible reality.

You could take Russell's success at face value (making him an easy GOAT by CORP) I guess, but I think that luck being generally in his favor is the way more possible explanation. He sure doesn't look multiple standard deviations above the other superstars on film. Best player in the league dropped into a good team AND excellent management AND massively exceeded expectations and only then you get 11 rings.

[Cavsfansince84]

Yes, one would expect that, averaging every possible random situation. The context of the league we actually saw was not random, though. If you're so keen on using CORP, you cannot really take one iteration of one of multiple different situations and act like it's the only possible reality.

You could take Russell's success at face value (making him an easy GOAT by CORP) I guess, but I think that luck being generally in his favor is the way more possible explanation. He sure doesn't look multiple standard deviations above the other superstars on film. Best player in the league dropped into a good team AND excellent management AND massively exceeded expectations and only then you get 11 rings.

Plus I think the thing people just never seem to appreciate/talk about regarding those teams is how rare it is to have players who aren't really even seen as top 5-10 in that era(specifically talking about Jones and Hondo here) who consistently seemed to have top 5 level games/series whenever the team needed it from them. On top of the game winning shots they sometimes hit. I give Russell some credit there for just creating a team concept that I think brought out the best in his teammates but guys who can put up 24-28ppg on good-great efficiency in the playoffs don't grow on trees in any era and one of those two was basically doing it every year from 63-69 on a consistent basis. The Celtics dynasty required a lot of parts doing their jobs every year.

[penbeast0]

...

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed . . . .

West was washed in 72 when he scored 26 ppg on good efficiency, led the entire NBA in assists, was 1st team All-Defense and 1st team All-NBA (as he still was in 73), and finished 2nd in the league in MVP voting while being the best offensive player on the NBA champion?

You are either a bit clueless or being dishonest with your characterization.

[iggymcfrack]

...

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed . . . .

West was washed in 72 when he scored 26 ppg on good efficiency, led the entire NBA in assists, was 1st team All-Defense and 1st team All-NBA (as he still was in 73), and finished 2nd in the league in MVP voting while being the best offensive player on the NBA champion?

You are either a bit clueless or being dishonest with your characterization.

Ok, I guess “washed” is unfair. He just had a really, really bad playoffs. Shot 9% worse than any other playoffs in his career up to that point. I have a hard time giving him much credit for the ring due to that but I guess he was still an elite passer.

[CP3nthusiast]

In my mind, Jokic is easily one of the best 10 offensive players ever. Excellent touch around the rim, excellent post game, great mid-range shooter, good 3pt shooter, good offensive rebounder, top 5 passer ever, excellent clutch shot maker. Very few players in history have the ability to both score at a high level and elevate the play of their teammates. I'd put Robertson on that list.

Obviously West and Robertson have the better careers but if Jokic plays at this level for about 4-5 more years and plays an addition 3-5 years after that, he could conceivably end his career with at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 8,000 assists on 60 TS%. No player in history has done that. Even if he doesn't win another ring, that alone would vault him into the top 15 of all time.

[rk2023]

In my mind, Jokic is easily one of the best 10 offensive players ever. Excellent touch around the rim, excellent post game, great mid-range shooter, good 3pt shooter, good offensive rebounder, top 5 passer ever, excellent clutch shot maker. Very few players in history have the ability to both score at a high level and elevate the play of their teammates. I'd put Robertson on that list.

Obviously West and Robertson have the better careers but if Jokic plays at this level for about 4-5 more years and plays an addition 3-5 years after that, he could conceivably end his career with at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 8,000 assists on 60 TS%. No player in history has done that. Even if he doesn't win another ring, that alone would vault him into the top 15 of all time.

Great analysis, though I would add West did a great job at the efficacious scoring / elevating the cast around him facets of offense. I will say, Jokic is definitely better than either at this point on offense.

[DQuinn1575]

Careers:

1) Oscar 2) West 3) Jokic

Peaks:

1) Jokic 2A) West 2B) Oscar

3 year peak - True Shooting Add / Assists

Oscar 1,093.4 2,487
West 1,029.4 1,247
Jokic 797.6 1,861


Oscar's combinated of TS+ and assists is pretty much unequalled, and this is for a team B-Ref shows as number 1 in offensive efficiency all 3 years.

[rk2023]

Careers:

1) Oscar 2) West 3) Jokic

Peaks:

1) Jokic 2A) West 2B) Oscar

3 year peak - True Shooting Add / Assists

Oscar 1,093.4 2,487
West 1,029.4 1,247
Jokic 797.6 1,861


Oscar's combinated of TS+ and assists is pretty much unequalled, and this is for a team B-Ref shows as number 1 in offensive efficiency all 3 years.

Worth keeping in mind the 60's pace was decently faster. Not taking anything away from Oscar (I rate him and West decently high in a prime/peak sense FWIW), as maintaining such efficiency and control of offense whilst playing more minutes isn't easy. This too is something that is often misconstrued by those whom cite the raw /75 scoring rates of older players too seriously.

[DQuinn1575]

Careers:

1) Oscar 2) West 3) Jokic

Peaks:

1) Jokic 2A) West 2B) Oscar

3 year peak - True Shooting Add / Assists

Oscar 1,093.4 2,487
West 1,029.4 1,247
Jokic 797.6 1,861


Oscar's combinated of TS+ and assists is pretty much unequalled, and this is for a team B-Ref shows as number 1 in offensive efficiency all 3 years.

Worth keeping in mind the 60's pace was decently faster. Not taking anything away from Oscar (I rate him and West decently high in a prime/peak sense FWIW), as maintaining such efficiency and control of offense whilst playing more minutes isn't easy. This too is something that is often misconstrued by those whom cite the raw /75 scoring rates of older players too seriously.

So taking 98 vs 116, you get about a 16% discount

So give Oscar 918 and 2,089 vs Jokic's 798 and 1,861,

[70sFan]

...

West didn’t win a ring until he was washed . . . .

West was washed in 72 when he scored 26 ppg on good efficiency, led the entire NBA in assists, was 1st team All-Defense and 1st team All-NBA (as he still was in 73), and finished 2nd in the league in MVP voting while being the best offensive player on the NBA champion?

You are either a bit clueless or being dishonest with your characterization.

Ok, I guess “washed” is unfair. He just had a really, really bad playoffs. Shot 9% worse than any other playoffs in his career up to that point. I have a hard time giving him much credit for the ring due to that but I guess he was still an elite passer.

The main playmaker and the best perimeter defender of his team, while taking the most self-created shots of his team. Yeah, he was not at his best anymore, but just because a player has a poor TS% doesn't mean that he plays badly. Especially considering context (facing the best defensive teams in the league full of elite perimeter players).