Peaks: Kobe vs West vs Oscar vs Wade

[Matt15]

Peaks only, how would you rank them from 1-4?

[SpreeS]

Oscar
West
Wade
Kobe

[One_and_Done]

Wade #1 for sure.

[rk2023]

West
Kobe
Oscar
Wade

They're all more or less the same tier and rather close to one another, however. Gun to my head, that would be my ranking though.

[70sFan]

Wade #1 for sure.

You present a lot of strong opinions. Could you explain me what I miss here? Because to me this comparison is far from "sure".

[rk2023]

Wade #1 for sure.

You present a lot of strong opinions. Could you explain me what I miss here? Because to me this comparison is far from "sure".

Probably going to cite some combination of BPM, PER, RAPM, so on

[No-more-rings]

I prefer:

Wade
Oscar
Kobe/West

[iggymcfrack]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

[rk2023]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

1966/69/70 West is at the least competitive. I would say the same for Bryant in 2008. As for Wade, he'd be my #1 pick for 06 POY - but Kobe Nash Dirk all had their own cases. I wouldn't call it consensus unless there is heavy winning bias involved.

[70sFan]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

I think at least a few postseason runs from Kobe and West are comparable.

I'd say that West had a very strong case for POY in 1969 and 1970.

Anyway, just because Wade didn't have to compete against prime Russell or LeBron doesn't mean he's better.

[rk2023]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

I think at least a few postseason runs from Kobe and West are comparable.

I'd say that West had a very strong case for POY in 1969 and 1970.

Anyway, just because Wade didn't have to compete against prime Russell or LeBron doesn't mean he's better.

In fact, West received closer to a unanimous POY share in 1970 than Wade did in 2006 - both of those being the single year each one of them was selected for the award. I don't regard either as each players' peak - rather 66 for West and 09 for Wade. But of course going against near peak Russell and (imo) peak James can influence a voting dependent on surrounding talent.

West: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1048389
Wade: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1007686

Unsure if Sansterre or anybody else has done a similar write-up on pre-'Heatles' Wade and his "slice of the pie" of impact, but here's how prime West looks (h/t the 1972 Lakers write-up in 'Greatest Teams').

Spoiler:

Let’s talk about Jerry West. West is probably the best retired short player *ever* (I say retired, because there’s a very respectable chance that Curry unseats him before the end). There isn’t huge competition here, but the best point guard ever was 6’9”, and the ATGs are all bigs, wings or shooting guards at 6’6” or taller. West was short (6'3"), but had very long arms (reputedly a 6’7” wingspan). He would grow into one of the best scorers in the league, with a blend of great shooting and excellent drives to the rim. Any way you slice it, he was one of the top 4 players of the shot clock era before, say, 1972. But he doesn’t have any teams on this list until ‘72 and ‘73. Why is that? Let’s talk about it.

You may remember the following chart of WS Helio scores from my writeup on the ‘72 Bucks:

38.1% WS for ‘72 Kareem
29.9% WS for ‘09 LeBron
29.5% WS for ‘93 Jordan
28.9% WS for ‘03 Duncan

I’m going to go through West’s years leading up to ‘72 with the team results, his WS share, and his WS rank in that season:

1961: 36-43, +1.42 OSRS, Conf Finals, 17.1%, 20th
1962: 54-26, +3.55 OSRS, NBA Finals, 28.9%, 5th
1963: 53-27, +5.03 OSRS, NBA Finals, 17.4%, 11th (missed 25 games)
1964: 42-38, -0.74 OSRS, Semis, 34.1%, 6th (Baylor started to have knee problems)
1965: 49-31, +0.04 OSRS, NBA Finals, 39.0%, 3rd
1966: 45-35, +3.48 OSRS, NBA Finals, 37.5%, 2nd
1967: 36-45, -1.57 OSRS, Semis, 28.7%, 6th (missed 15 games)
1968: 52-30, +5.26 OSRS, NBA Finals, 18.6%, 11th (missed 31 games)

West's prime gets underrated because he wasn't in the data-ball era with much more access to information for assessing players (like Kobe and Wade), doesn't have the "rangzzzzz" (compared to Kobe), or doesn't have the ground-breakingly perceived box-scores (compared to Oscar and his triple doubles, ~30-10 seasons, etc). However, with a nuanced view of basketball - it's not hard to see how underrated he is. Injuries keep me lower on his career than seems (I rank him 15th), but on a per-play basis.. I'm unsure how many non-bigs not named LeBron James or Michael Jordan I would take over him.

[iggymcfrack]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

I think at least a few postseason runs from Kobe and West are comparable.

I'd say that West had a very strong case for POY in 1969 and 1970.

Anyway, just because Wade didn't have to compete against prime Russell or LeBron doesn't mean he's better.

Just prime Duncan, KG, Dirk, and Kobe. It wasn’t exactly a weak year.

[70sFan]

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

I think at least a few postseason runs from Kobe and West are comparable.

I'd say that West had a very strong case for POY in 1969 and 1970.

Anyway, just because Wade didn't have to compete against prime Russell or LeBron doesn't mean he's better.

Just prime Duncan, KG, Dirk, and Kobe. It wasn’t exactly a weak year.

Yeah, but Duncan and Garnett had down seasons, while Kobe and Dirk were never on Russell or LeBron level.

[tsherkin]

Mmm. I'm thinking Oscar, then Wade/West, then Kobe.

[rate_]

Wade is #1 for me

[ceoofkobefans]

1. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant

2. 2008-09 Dwyane Wade
3. 1965-66 Jerry West
4. 1964-65 Oscar Robertson

[One_and_Done]

08 Kobe per 100: 36.5p, 8.1r, 6.9a, 115 Ortg/105 Drtg, 576TS%
06 Wade per 100: 37p, 7.8r, 9.1a, 115Ortg/103 Drtg, 577 TS%

So RS Wade was slightly better. Unfortunately for Kobe the playoff stats are quite different.

Kobe: 38, 7, 7.1 p 100, 113 Ortg/108 Drtg, 577 TS%.
Wade: 36.3, 7.5, 7.4, 115 Ortg/100 Drtg, 593 TS%

Plus Wade led the Heat to a title with a relatively weak support team, while Kobe lost despite an incredible support cast. To be fair though, the 08 Celtics would have spanked the Heat too.

To the eye test Wade was just better on both ends too. The defense was more locked in on him than Kobe, because he had less help.

[HeartBreakKid]

Robertson
West
Wade
Bryant

Not sure about Robertson over West. Have to look into their playoffs more closely.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wade #1 for sure.

I’d have to agree. None of the other players had a playoff run like 2006 or a season where you could really say they had a strong case for POY. Wade was a deserved consensus POY in ‘06.

Jerry West did win POY though in 1970. Jerry West won POY by a higher margin than Wade did.

2006 is definitely not an open shut case, it's one of the most contested years. Even more so off of this message board.

[70sFan]

08 Kobe per 100: 36.5p, 8.1r, 6.9a, 115 Ortg/105 Drtg, 576TS%
06 Wade per 100: 37p, 7.8r, 9.1a, 115Ortg/103 Drtg, 577 TS%

So RS Wade was slightly better. Unfortunately for Kobe the playoff stats are quite different.

Kobe: 38, 7, 7.1 p 100, 113 Ortg/108 Drtg, 577 TS%.
Wade: 36.3, 7.5, 7.4, 115 Ortg/100 Drtg, 593 TS%

Plus Wade led the Heat to a title with a relatively weak support team, while Kobe lost despite an incredible support cast. To be fair though, the 08 Celtics would have spanked the Heat too.

To the eye test Wade was just better on both ends too. The defense was more locked in on him than Kobe, because he had less help.

So you posted two slashlines that are almost identical and concluded that Wade has a massive advantage?