RealGM

Who's better?

I am looking at the stats, and I'm not really seeing Kobe's case.

From 88 to 98 Malone's per 100 stats were 36.6/14.5/4.5 with 591 TS%.

From 00 to 10 Kobe's per 100 stats were 36.9/7.6/6.9 with 558 TS%

But Karl gets worse in the playoffs right? Um, ok a little bit, but not enough that his production drops below Kobe.

From 88 to 98 Malone's per 100 PS stats were 35.2/14.9/3.9 with 534 TS%.

From 00 to 10 Kobe's per 100 PS stats were 35/7/6.6 with 545 TS%

Then leave the stats aside. Karl Malone is a huge force on D, clearly more impactful than Kobe on that end. Malone certainly led the Jazz to successful seasons. He just didn't have the fortune to play with the stacked teams Kobe did. Kobe also juices his stats by playing alot of his prime during the post 2004 rule changes; Malone is doing it under less favourable scoring rules. Malone has a big longevity advantage too.

It seems like the Mailman just flat out delivered, regular season or not.

Troll alert. No Malone was not a “huge force on d”, he was good one not a force at all.

For what amounts to a semantic debate, the first two words were completely unnecessary. Warned.

He wasn't a rim protector, but he was a great man defender and low post enforcer.

One_and_Done wrote:He wasn't a rim protector, but he was a great man defender and low post enforcer.

Maybe you could’ve chosen better words then. “Huge force on d” made it sound like he was Hakeem or Duncan anchoring a defense. That’s probably what would’ve been needed for him to actually be better than Kobe anyhow.

How so? His offense appears better than Kobe in the regular season, and comparable in the postseason. A slight defensive advantage should get him over the line in theory, and he has a huge one.

I don't think there's some subtle impact Kobe is generating elsewhere with his play style that gives him some extra advantage either.

One_and_Done wrote:How so? His offense appears better than Kobe in the regular season, and comparable in the postseason. A slight defensive advantage should get him over the line in theory, and he has a huge one.

I don't think there's some subtle impact Kobe is generating elsewhere with his play style that gives him some extra advantage either.

His offense is absolutely not comparable in the postseason. Malone is far more stoppable in that kind of atmosphere.

No-more-rings wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:How so? His offense appears better than Kobe in the regular season, and comparable in the postseason. A slight defensive advantage should get him over the line in theory, and he has a huge one.

I don't think there's some subtle impact Kobe is generating elsewhere with his play style that gives him some extra advantage either.

His offense is absolutely not comparable in the postseason. Malone is far more stoppable in that kind of atmosphere.

The stats don't suggest that, as I noted above. Nor is Malone benefiting from having Shaq or Pau to get him open shots, or the modern offense favourable rules to juice his scoring.

One_and_Done wrote:I am looking at the stats,

That’s all you needed to say, in light of this question.

It's not like Kobe is warping the D ala Curry; his biggest strength is a weakness in that regard. His scoring is inelastic.

Huge force on D would be Duncan and Hakeem not Malone.

They aren't the same guys in the PS

Kobe from 00-10 in the PS (So we can get a 10 season sample of Kobe in the PS)

Adjusted 28.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%). Estimated 8.3 shots created every 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-6 (4.5 OBPM)

Karl Malone from 89-98 in the PS

Adjusted 28.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 1.7%). Estimated 4.5 shots created every 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-5.3 (3.7 OBPM)

From this we can see that Kobe is not only scoring better, but he is also creating many more shots than Malone. Kobe simply had more gravity as a scorer than Malone, and believe it or not, he did take advantage of it more than you might think. Malone looked like a better scorer earlier on, when he was younger and had more lift. However, he was probably a worse passer than. Overall, Kobe looks to be the better offensive weapon.

Also, Kobe and Malone's offensive games have some similarities...they both were heavy isolationists. Malone, actually didn't have as many of shots set up for him as history might have you believe. Malone wasn't the best role-man do to the lack of lift. Malone did better when he got to methodically dictate how he would create his own shot...however, Kobe just so happened to do this better than Malone I would say.

Via Backpicks "Additionally, in tracking nearly 400 possessions from 1991-98, Malone had a teammate create a score for him at a rate of 0.5 per 100 possessions. For comparison, in 1,100 possessions during the 2010 playoffs, Amare Stoudemire’s rate of “helped” offense like this was 3.4 per 100, nearly seven times higher. Malone’s rate was closer to hubs like LeBron (0.3 per 100 in the ’10 playoffs) and Kobe (0.4 per 100 in the ’10 playoffs)."

However, the gap probably grows between them if you look at smaller periods of time. People often associate better basketball player with who was the better player at their best.

I think because of Kobe's unique situation earlier in his career, he showed that he could be a great 2nd option, and play off-ball in perhaps a way Malone never proved (since he was basically always the guy on high-level teams from what I recall). However, Kobe showed even more as the true #1 option than Malone, which suggests Kobe might have more equity as a #1 or #2 option than Malone. Kobe is one of three players in history to play on two separate teams with five-year stretches of +5 playoff offenses.


From 2006-10 Kobe Bryant in the PS averaged around

PTS/75: 29.9
TRB/75: 5.8
AST/75: 5.5
STK/75: 2.2
rORtg: +6.5
rTS%: +4

You probably cannot find a 5-year stretch for Malone that is comparable.

Kobe was apart of all-time level offenses as a #1 and #2 guy. On the contrary, Utah's offenses often underperformed in the PS, although they did have a 92-96 stretch that did eclipse 06-10 LAL, though not 97-01 LAL. Still, Malone might be one of the biggest playoff droppers ever from the RS to PS, depending on how much you value the box-score.



We also have AuPM/G that maps decently well to RAPM for Malone's arguable peaks in 97 and 98. He clocked in at a 4.9 and 4 respectively which are good marks. However, Kobe peaked in 01 at 6.9, while also having a 5.6 mark in 09. He also had a 4.4 mark in 08, so in terms of a 2-year stretch look at things, he does seem to be arguably better than Malone. PIPM also has Kobe at having 4 PS runs more valuable than Malone's peak in 97. For all intents and purposes, it would seem single year peak favors Kobe.

There simply isn't great evidence that Malone's defensive advantage swung things enough for him to eclipse Kobe, largely because Malone was lacking as a rim-protector. Malone did have good man defense, however, I think Kobe was positionally sound enough in later years, and ball-hawkish in the early 2000s, to be a positive to notable value-add.

One_and_Done wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:How so? His offense appears better than Kobe in the regular season, and comparable in the postseason. A slight defensive advantage should get him over the line in theory, and he has a huge one.

I don't think there's some subtle impact Kobe is generating elsewhere with his play style that gives him some extra advantage either.

His offense is absolutely not comparable in the postseason. Malone is far more stoppable in that kind of atmosphere.

The stats don't suggest that, as I noted above. Nor is Malone benefiting from having Shaq or Pau to get him open shots, or the modern offense favourable rules to juice his scoring.

What stats suggest that Malone was as good as Kobe offensively in the playoffs?

Thr part where he's scoring a similar amount at similar efficiency, despite not playing with the benefit of post 04 rules and without having Shaq/Pau to open things up by sucking in lots of defensive attention.

One_and_Done wrote:Thr part where he's scoring a similar amount at similar efficiency, despite not playing with the benefit of post 04 rules and without having Shaq/Pau to open things up by sucking in lots of defensive attention.

But they didn't score at similar efficiency. You also always kept talking about weaker league and illegal defense, but in Kobe's case it suddenly doesn't matter?

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Thr part where he's scoring a similar amount at similar efficiency, despite not playing with the benefit of post 04 rules and without having Shaq/Pau to open things up by sucking in lots of defensive attention.

But they didn't score at similar efficiency. You also always kept talking about weaker league and illegal defense, but in Kobe's case it suddenly doesn't matter?

Happy to explain. Kobe 100% can claim the benefit of playing in a tougher league. Malone was still going strong at the early part of Kobe's prime, so I don't think he would have had any adjustment issues, but for sure the quality of the league he was in wad generally worse.

Now, with that said, these points are worth noting:
1) I've said this before in the era discussion thread, but I think the modern era really ramped up in 2011. Kobe's prime comes before then mostly. I don't think the oveall team quality from 00 to 10 compares well with say 2011 to 2020. Kobe isn't getting the same bump I'm giving to say Lebron for suceeding so much in a tougher league.
2) The changes to the rules in 04 helped Kobe score, and they would also to a lessor extent have helped Malone. Not as much.obviously, but it definitely would have helpef juice his offence some.
3) it's not like Kobe dominated the modern era like Lebron or Duncan did, carrying weak teams to success when needed. Kobe had stacked teams. So to say Kobe had more succesd in a tougher league is counter balanced by the context of that success.

Lastly as I have explained I don't era adjust TS. Happy to discuss how it was affected by era, but a flat adjustment rewards/punished based on people in your league being better/worse shooters on average. By that logic if we chuck Reddick into 1957 he was the GOAT offensive player on what his relative TS would no doubt be.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:They aren't the same guys in the PS

Kobe from 00-10 in the PS (So we can get a 10 season sample of Kobe in the PS)

Adjusted 28.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3%). Estimated 8.3 shots created every 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-6 (4.5 OBPM)

Karl Malone from 89-98 in the PS

Adjusted 28.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 1.7%). Estimated 4.5 shots created every 100 possessions.

Backpicks BPM-5.3 (3.7 OBPM)

From this we can see that Kobe is not only scoring better, but he is also creating many more shots than Malone. Kobe simply had more gravity as a scorer than Malone, and believe it or not, he did take advantage of it more than you might think. Malone looked like a better scorer earlier on, when he was younger and had more lift. However, he was probably a worse passer than. Overall, Kobe looks to be the better offensive weapon.

Also, Kobe and Malone's offensive games have some similarities...they both were heavy isolationists. Malone, actually didn't have as many of shots set up for him as history might have you believe. Malone wasn't the best role-man do to the lack of lift. Malone did better when he got to methodically dictate how he would create his own shot...however, Kobe just so happened to do this better than Malone I would say.

Via Backpicks "Additionally, in tracking nearly 400 possessions from 1991-98, Malone had a teammate create a score for him at a rate of 0.5 per 100 possessions. For comparison, in 1,100 possessions during the 2010 playoffs, Amare Stoudemire’s rate of “helped” offense like this was 3.4 per 100, nearly seven times higher. Malone’s rate was closer to hubs like LeBron (0.3 per 100 in the ’10 playoffs) and Kobe (0.4 per 100 in the ’10 playoffs)."

However, the gap probably grows between them if you look at smaller periods of time. People often associate better basketball player with who was the better player at their best.

I think because of Kobe's unique situation earlier in his career, he showed that he could be a great 2nd option, and play off-ball in perhaps a way Malone never proved (since he was basically always the guy on high-level teams from what I recall). However, Kobe showed even more as the true #1 option than Malone, which suggests Kobe might have more equity as a #1 or #2 option than Malone. Kobe is one of three players in history to play on two separate teams with five-year stretches of +5 playoff offenses.


From 2006-10 Kobe Bryant in the PS averaged around

PTS/75: 29.9
TRB/75: 5.8
AST/75: 5.5
STK/75: 2.2
rORtg: +6.5
rTS%: +4

You probably cannot find a 5-year stretch for Malone that is comparable.

Kobe was apart of all-time level offenses as a #1 and #2 guy. On the contrary, Utah's offenses often underperformed in the PS, although they did have a 92-96 stretch that did eclipse 06-10 LAL, though not 97-01 LAL. Still, Malone might be one of the biggest playoff droppers ever from the RS to PS, depending on how much you value the box-score.

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We also have AuPM/G that maps decently well to RAPM for Malone's arguable peaks in 97 and 98. He clocked in at a 4.9 and 4 respectively which are good marks. However, Kobe peaked in 01 at 6.9, while also having a 5.6 mark in 09. He also had a 4.4 mark in 08, so in terms of a 2-year stretch look at things, he does seem to be arguably better than Malone. PIPM also has Kobe at having 4 PS runs more valuable than Malone's peak in 97. For all intents and purposes, it would seem single year peak favors Kobe.

There simply isn't great evidence that Malone's defensive advantage swung things enough for him to eclipse Kobe, largely because Malone was lacking as a rim-protector. Malone did have good man defense, however, I think Kobe was positionally sound enough in later years, and ball-hawkish in the early 2000s, to be a positive to notable value-add.

The jargon doesn't explain the simplicity of this -

Malone constantly carried the scoring load of his team ALL his career and his team won an average of 55 a season from about 1989-2001. Can't think of any other player in his era that did that, including Jordan, whose team did win more per season when he played but nowhere near as many seasons. Jazz teams were much less talented than other finals teams and pretty much other playoff teams. Kobe's situation was quite the opposite most of his career, particularly 2000s.

One_and_Done wrote:Happy to explain. Kobe 100% can claim the benefit of playing in a tougher league. Malone was still going strong at the early part of Kobe's prime, so I don't think he would have had any adjustment issues, but for sure the quality of the league he was in wad generally worse.

By early part you mean 2001-03?

1) I've said this before in the era discussion thread, but I think the modern era really ramped up in 2011. Kobe's prime comes before then mostly. I don't think the oveall team quality from 00 to 10 compares well with say 2011 to 2020. Kobe isn't getting the same bump I'm giving to say Lebron for suceeding so much in a tougher league.

OK, but you mentioned it many times that Hakeem played in a significantly weaker era than Duncan. It's identical situation here and in fact, Kobe peaked a little later than Duncan, making him closer to the 2010s.

3) it's not like Kobe dominated the modern era like Lebron or Duncan did, carrying weak teams to success when needed. Kobe had stacked teams. So to say Kobe had more succesd in a tougher league is counter balanced by the context of that success.

Well, Malone didn't dominate his own era either, so that's a moot point.

Lastly as I have explained I don't era adjust TS. Happy to discuss how it was affected by era, but a flat adjustment rewards/punished based on people in your league being better/worse shooters on average.

Malone was less efficient than Kobe in absolute terms in the playoffs, the gap is even bigger without adjusting for eras if we look at their primes.

By that logic if we chuck Reddick into 1957 he was the GOAT offensive player on what his relative TS would no doubt be.

No, Reddick wouldn't be the offensive GOAT in 1957.

Give me Malone all day. Slightly worse offensive player. Significantly better defensive player. Much better longevity. And much less likely to choke on the big stage.

iggymcfrack wrote:And much less likely to choke on the big stage.

Just how...? I have the word "choke", but it makes no sense.

70sFan wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:And much less likely to choke on the big stage.

Just how...? I have the word "choke", but it makes no sense.

Malone at least came through and played a big Finals in ‘98 after choking in ‘97. Feels like Kobe badly underperformed in every competitive Finals. Like if it made a Game 6, you know he was going in the tank. Plus that ‘04 Finals is a horrible black mark. Much worse than LeBron in 2011 IMO. Shaq was looking like he could have an all-time Finals and Kobe just wasn’t having it. He was gonna throw the ball into the bottom of the rim before he gave Shaq an open dunk.