David Robinson v Shaq

[migya]

Robinson and Shaq played most of their careers at the same time, Robinson 1990-03 and Shaq 1993-11. Comparing them both it is interesting since Shaq is rated so much higher and yet many analytical data points to Robinson being more impactful.

Add your own data of these two.


David Robinson- 1989-90 - 2002-03
RS - 987gms, 34.7mins, 21.1pts, 51.8fg%, 6.1ftm, 8.3fta, 73.6ft%, 10.6reb, 2.5ast, 1.4stl, 3blk, 2.4tos, 116OR, 96DR, 26.2PER, 58.3ts%, 98.5ows, 80.1dws, 178.7ws, .250ws/48, 7.5bpm, 81.9vorp, Play by play (1997-2003) 430 games, 13065 minutes, +9.9 on court, +6.1 on/off

Playoffs - 123gms, 34.3mins, 18.1pts, 47.9fg%, 5.6ftm, 7.9fta, 70.8ft%, 10.6reb, 2.3ast, 1.2stl, 2.5blk, 2.3tos, 110OR, 96DR, 23PER, 54.7ts%, 7.8ows, 9.7dws, 17.5ws, .199ws/48, 6.2bpm, 8.7vorp, Play by play (1997-2003) 70 games, 2137 minutes, +10.3 on court, +18.9 on/off


Shaq- 1992-93 - 2010-11
RS - 1206gms, 34.7mins, 23.7pts, 58.2fg%, 4.9ftm, 9.3fta, 52.7ft%, 10.9reb, 2.5ast, 0.6stl, 2.3blk, 2.7tos, 113OR, 101DR, 26.4PER, 58.6ts%, 115.4ows, 66.4dws, 181.7ws, .208ws/48, 5.1bpm, 75.5vorp, Play by play (1997-2011) 912 games, 30754 minute, +7.8 on court, +8.5 on/off

Playoffs - 216gms, 37.5mins, 24.3pts, 56.3fg%, 5.4ftm, 10.7fta, 50.4ft%, 11.6reb, 2.7ast, 0.5stl, 2.1blk, 3tos, 110OR, 103DR, 26.1PER, 56.5ts%, 20.1ows, 11dws, 31.1ws, .184ws/48, 5.5bpm, 15.3vorp, Play by play (1997-2011) 180 games, 6708 minutes, +4.9 on court, +11.7 on/off


Obviously defense isn't measured much in this data and it's well known that Robinson was considerably better defensively.

[Colbinii]

One player played 22% more RS games and 75% more PS games.

[eminence]

David laid some ostrich size playoff eggs over his best RS stretch ('94-'96) and then came back a second fiddle.

It gets forgotten because the memory of Hakeem climbing the mountain in '95 is more exciting, but that was Robinsons best end to a playoffs those years. The Jazz absolutely smoked him in both '94 and '96 even worse than Hakeem did.

[migya]

One player played 22% more RS games and 75% more PS games.

But what was the value of those extra games? Shaq did little after 2006.

[migya]

David laid some ostrich size playoff eggs over his best RS stretch ('94-'96) and then came back a second fiddle.

It gets forgotten because the memory of Hakeem climbing the mountain in '95 is more exciting, but that was Robinsons best end to a playoffs those years. The Jazz absolutely smoked him in both '94 and '96 even worse than Hakeem did.

It is compelling how well Robinson played his first two years in the playoffs, which happened to be the only time he had reasonable talent on his team until Duncan arrived. He was the first option but had some help, though nothing like Shaq has in his career, and had some success in the playoffs. They were so close to beating the Blazers his first season, losing in a close seven game series. In 93 he outplayed mvp Barkley in round 2, both teams scored the same for the series, so he could've gone to the wcf right there.

[70sFan]

David laid some ostrich size playoff eggs over his best RS stretch ('94-'96) and then came back a second fiddle.

It gets forgotten because the memory of Hakeem climbing the mountain in '95 is more exciting, but that was Robinsons best end to a playoffs those years. The Jazz absolutely smoked him in both '94 and '96 even worse than Hakeem did.

It is compelling how well Robinson played his first two years in the playoffs, which happened to be the only time he had reasonable talent on his team until Duncan arrived. He was the first option but had some help, though nothing like Shaq has in his career, and had some success in the playoffs. They were so close to beating the Blazers his first season, losing in a close seven game series. In 93 he outplayed mvp Barkley in round 2, both teams scored the same for the series, so he could've gone to the wcf right there.

Robinson underperformed in 1998 against Jazz as well and he had good team around him then. Unless you think that Robinson was so far removed from his prime that we shouldn't look at anything he did after 1997 injury... but then his longevity is probably the worst ever among top 25 players

[Stan]

Yeah, very strange the guy who routinely shrank in the playoffs isn't seen as highly as the guy with 3 FMVP'S and some of the most dominant playoff runs and series ever.

[tsherkin]

Robinson underperformed in 1998 against Jazz as well and he had good team around him then. Unless you think that Robinson was so far removed from his prime that we shouldn't look at anything he did after 1997 injury... but then his longevity is probably the worst ever among top 25 players

Yes, but...

Shaq got taken 1-4 and 0-4 against Utah in 97 and 98. In those series...

1997: 22.0 ppg, 49.4% FG, 56.5% FT, 52.3% TS (26.2 ppg, 55.7% FG, 55.6% TS in the RS)
1998: 31.8 ppg, 45.5% FT, 56.0% TS (28.3 ppg, league-high 58.4% FG, 52.7% FT, 58.7% FT in the RS)

Great in 1998, but not so much in 97. And in fairness, he actually dominated MORE in the last 3 games of the 98 series, because he laid a 19-point, 6/16 FG stinker in Game 1.

Shaq had his troubles with the Jazz as well, at least for a minute.

[70sFan]

Robinson underperformed in 1998 against Jazz as well and he had good team around him then. Unless you think that Robinson was so far removed from his prime that we shouldn't look at anything he did after 1997 injury... but then his longevity is probably the worst ever among top 25 players

Yes, but...

Shaq got taken 1-4 and 0-4 against Utah in 97 and 98. In those series...

1997: 22.0 ppg, 49.4% FG, 56.5% FT, 52.3% TS (26.2 ppg, 55.7% FG, 55.6% TS in the RS)
1998: 31.8 ppg, 45.5% FT, 56.0% TS (28.3 ppg, league-high 58.4% FG, 52.7% FT, 58.7% FT in the RS)

Great in 1998, but not so much in 97. And in fairness, he actually dominated MORE in the last 3 games of the 98 series, because he laid a 19-point, 6/16 FG stinker in Game 1.

Shaq had his troubles with the Jazz as well, at least for a minute.

Sure, but there is a struggle and struggle. Shaq underperformed in both series (he was hunted on defense in 1998), but I don't think it's the same level of degree of struggle Robinson showed against the Jazz in three separate series.

[tsherkin]

Sure, but there is a struggle and struggle. Shaq underperformed in both series (he was hunted on defense in 1998), but I don't think it's the same level of degree of struggle Robinson showed against the Jazz in three separate series.

No, but it is a degree of explanation for why Robinson struggled. If they could make Shaq struggle for 5 or 6 games before he figured them out and was obliterating them for the last 3 of the 98 series, then Robinson was surely going to struggle as well. His move set was always "score in transition, post up on a guard/SF mismatch or drive at the rim and flail for the foul." It's why his TS% wasn't SO bad in the playoffs despite his crappy FG%, because he was still drawing tons of fouls, just like Karl Malone. Like Malone, however, he struggled to actually make shots, which tanked his scoring output. Shaq, of course, had less to worry about because he was just so overpoweringly strong that if he got near the bucket, he was going to score. It's fairly rare across his career that he struggled as much as he did in that 97 series, at least until he was older.

Anyway yes, Robinson had some unflattering series against the Jazz. He also faced them twice pre-Duncan.

1994: 20.0 ppg, 41.1% FG, 74.1% FT, 47.1% TS. He was the league's scoring leader in its first post-Jordan year at 29.8 ppg, on 50.7% FG, 74.9% FT and 57.7% TS. It was a rough fall.

1996: 19.3 ppg, 47.5% FG, 58.0% FT, 52.6% TS. 25.0 ppg, 51.6% FG, 76.1% FT, 58.9% TS in the RS.

Of course, it behooves one to remember that the Spurs were **** useless around Robinson. Avery Johnson, VDN and Sean Elliott were all sub-50% TS guys. Person and VDN at least hit threes because of the shortened line, but daaaaaaamn, they were all bad.

In 97, the Lakers were similar, not counting Robert Horry's performance. In 1998, Rick Fox shot the 3 well but the team was otherwise useless.

So anyway, yes. Robinson struggled more, but I think his teams were worse and the Jazz WERE extremely good.

[Owly]

David laid some ostrich size playoff eggs over his best RS stretch ('94-'96) and then came back a second fiddle.

It gets forgotten because the memory of Hakeem climbing the mountain in '95 is more exciting, but that was Robinsons best end to a playoffs those years. The Jazz absolutely smoked him in both '94 and '96 even worse than Hakeem did.

It is compelling how well Robinson played his first two years in the playoffs, which happened to be the only time he had reasonable talent on his team until Duncan arrived. He was the first option but had some help, though nothing like Shaq has in his career, and had some success in the playoffs. They were so close to beating the Blazers his first season, losing in a close seven game series. In 93 he outplayed mvp Barkley in round 2, both teams scored the same for the series, so he could've gone to the wcf right there.

Robinson underperformed in 1998 against Jazz as well and he had good team around him then. Unless you think that Robinson was so far removed from his prime that we shouldn't look at anything he did after 1997 injury... but then his longevity is probably the worst ever among top 25 players

It's a small sample so how one assesses can vary. ...

"Underperformed" ... it depends what expectations are but perhaps ...

Still Reference BPM over the series is +6.28 just on unweighted game average or accounting for minutes (rounding to the nearest whole minute) +5.615025907.

The Spurs are winning 4 of 5 games in the minutes he's on the floor (albeit often narrowly) but lose ground in the brief time he's off (hence +18.4 playoff on-off).

None of the other members of the "good team" is nearly as productive as him in the playoff, aggregating of the 3 Reference composites (WS/48 does have Johnson a little over him, but clearly lower on the other two - and he was generally regarded as a bad non-box defender).

[migya]

Robinson underperformed in 1998 against Jazz as well and he had good team around him then. Unless you think that Robinson was so far removed from his prime that we shouldn't look at anything he did after 1997 injury... but then his longevity is probably the worst ever among top 25 players

Yes, but...

Shaq got taken 1-4 and 0-4 against Utah in 97 and 98. In those series...

1997: 22.0 ppg, 49.4% FG, 56.5% FT, 52.3% TS (26.2 ppg, 55.7% FG, 55.6% TS in the RS)
1998: 31.8 ppg, 45.5% FT, 56.0% TS (28.3 ppg, league-high 58.4% FG, 52.7% FT, 58.7% FT in the RS)

Great in 1998, but not so much in 97. And in fairness, he actually dominated MORE in the last 3 games of the 98 series, because he laid a 19-point, 6/16 FG stinker in Game 1.

Shaq had his troubles with the Jazz as well, at least for a minute.

Shaq's Lakers were much better than Robinson's Spurs, that tells the story. Robinson still had them in most of those series, Shaq for destroyed by those Jazz teams and the 95 Rockets far more than Robinson's Spurs. Pretty certain to think Shaq wouldn't have won as much with those Spurs teams.

[tsherkin]

Shaq's Lakers were much better than Robinson's Spurs, that tells the story. Robinson still had them in most of those series, Shaq for destroyed by those Jazz teams and the 95 Rockets far more than Robinson's Spurs. Pretty certain to think Shaq wouldn't have won as much with those Spurs teams.

It doesn't tell the whole story, because the Lakers performed like garbage all the same in the Jazz matchups, even when Shaq was crushing them in the last 3 games of the second series. The names sound intriguing as far as Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones and even young Kobe and all that, but they did nothing against Utah. Part of the problem was coaching, part of the problem was insufficient spacing. Things started to align a little later on, though, as the roleplayers from the title teams started to get there, for sure. Robinson definitely suffered for the quality of his teammates, but Shaq felt it pretty keenly in those years as well.

[migya]

Shaq's Lakers were much better than Robinson's Spurs, that tells the story. Robinson still had them in most of those series, Shaq for destroyed by those Jazz teams and the 95 Rockets far more than Robinson's Spurs. Pretty certain to think Shaq wouldn't have won as much with those Spurs teams.

It doesn't tell the whole story, because the Lakers performed like garbage all the same in the Jazz matchups, even when Shaq was crushing them in the last 3 games of the second series. The names sound intriguing as far as Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones and even young Kobe and all that, but they did nothing against Utah. Part of the problem was coaching, part of the problem was insufficient spacing. Things started to align a little later on, though, as the roleplayers from the title teams started to get there, for sure. Robinson definitely suffered for the quality of his teammates, but Shaq felt it pretty keenly in those years as well.

Shaq missed from 20-25 games in 96, 97 and 98 and his teams won about 60 games each of those seasons. That shows his good they were. Robinson only missed games in 92, not counting 97, and the Spurs lost almost all their games including all three in the playoffs, by fairly considerable margins. That does show the difference between birth those players' situations.

[tsherkin]

Shaq missed from 20-25 games in 96, 97 and 98 and his teams won about 60 games each of those seasons. That shows his good they were. Robinson only missed games in 92, not counting 97, and the Spurs lost almost all their games including all three in the playoffs, by fairly considerable margins. That does show the difference between birth those players' situations.

53, 56 and 61 wins, right?

No Shaq in 1996. He was on Orlando, that was Magic's comeback year.

They were 38-13 with Shaq in 97, which means they were 18-13 without him (pace for 47 wins without him).

46-14 with him in 1998, 15-7 without him, pace for 56 wins or so.

He clearly made them better, so I'm not sure what you were hoping for there. Yes, San Antonio was crap in the RS compared to LA. Yes, LA crapped itself in epic fashion vs Utah in 97 and 98. And?

[migya]

Shaq missed from 20-25 games in 96, 97 and 98 and his teams won about 60 games each of those seasons. That shows his good they were. Robinson only missed games in 92, not counting 97, and the Spurs lost almost all their games including all three in the playoffs, by fairly considerable margins. That does show the difference between birth those players' situations.

53, 56 and 61 wins, right?

No Shaq in 1996. He was on Orlando, that was Magic's comeback year.

They were 38-13 with Shaq in 97, which means they were 18-13 without him (pace for 47 wins without him).

46-14 with him in 1998, 15-7 without him, pace for 56 wins or so.

He clearly made them better, so I'm not sure what you were hoping for there. Yes, San Antonio was crap in the RS compared to LA. Yes, LA crapped itself in epic fashion vs Utah in 97 and 98. And?

My point was in line with what I started earlier; that Robinson had far less talented teams and he contributed more to them winning than Shaq did with his.

I mentioned 96 Orlando because that was one of Shaq's teams. He played 54 games with 40-14 and they were 20-8 without him. Both 96 and 98 his teams won very well without him, 97 not bad either, would be 6th or 7th seed.

Do you think any of Robinson's teams before 97 would've been able to do that? Pretty obvious one.

[tsherkin]

My point was in line with what I started earlier; that Robinson had far less talented teams and he contributed more to them winning than Shaq did with his.

In the regular season, that makes plenty of sense, yeah.

I mentioned 96 Orlando because that was one of Shaq's teams. He played 54 games with 40-14 and they were 20-8 without him. Both 96 and 98 his teams won very well without him, 97 not bad either, would be 6th or 7th seed.

Ah, I thought you were trying to talk about the 96 Lakers because we were discussing series matchups with Utah. Which made no sense to me, for obvious reasons. But that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

[Djoker]

You could definitely make a strong case that 90's Robinson was better than 90's Shaq. But 2000 and 2001 Shaq is better than any version of Robinson. It's pretty clear-cut too IMO.

[lessthanjake]

In the 1990s, I regarded David Robinson as better. But then Shaq peaked in the early 2000s, and I don’t think Robinson ever reached the level Shaq reached at that point.

To me, Joel Embiid feels like a good comparator to David Robinson.

[migya]

You could definitely make a strong case that 90's Robinson was better than 90's Shaq. But 2000 and 2001 Shaq is better than any version of Robinson. It's pretty clear-cut too IMO.

For their lone mvp seasons the numbers are:

Robinson 1994-95 -
RS - 81gm, 38mins, 27.6pts, 53fg%, 8.1ftm, 77.4ft%, 10.8reb, 2.9ast, 1.7stl, 3.2blk, 2.9tos, 120OR, 99DR, 29.1PER, 60.2ts%, 10.7ows, 6.7dws, 17.5ws, .273ws/48, 9.2bpm, 8.7vorp,
Play by play (1998) 73 games, 2457 minutes, +7.8 on court, +6.4on/off

PS - 15gm, 41.5mins, 25.3pts, 44.6fg%, 8.1ftm, 81.2ft%, 12.1reb, 3.1ast, 1.5stl, 2.6blk, 3.7tos, 108OR, 98DR, 22.6PER, 53.6ts%, 0.7ows, 1.6dws, 2.3ws, .176ws/48, 6.1bpm,
Play by play (1998) 9 games, 353 minutes, +9.1 on court, +18.4 on/off

*Used play by play for 1998 as that was the only season where Robinson was the number 1 option for the Spurs and Duncan was a rookie.


Shaq 1999-2000 -
RS - 79gm, 40mins, 29.7pts, 57.4fg%, 5.5ftm, 52.4ft%, 13.6reb, 3.8ast, 0.5stl, 3blk, 2.8tos, 115OR, 95DR, 30.6PER, 57.8ts%, 11.7ows, 7dws, 18.6ws, .283ws/48, 9.3bpm, 9vorp, Play by play games, 79 games, 3163 minutes, +10.4 on court, +10.9 on/off

PS - 23gm, 43.5mins, 30.7pts, 56.6fg%, 5.9ftm, 45.6ft%, 15.4reb, 3.1ast, 0.6stl, 2.4blk, 2.4tos, 114OR, 104DR, 30.5PER, 55.6ts%
Play by play games, 23 games, 1000 minutes, +4.7 on court, +22.9 on/off



It's very close. Offensively Shaq has the only clear advantage in points, and by little, but even with few defensive numbers here Robinson is clearly better.

When Robinson had a good perimeter player, Elliott in 95 and 96, he had arguably his best seasons and was good in the playoffs. It is quite notable.

Shaq had Kobe, a good perimeter player, and when he improved Shaq was better. Shaq just happened to have one or more good perimeter players every year of his prime (1995-2006), from Penny to Van Exel and Eddie Jones to Kobe to Wade.

Give Robinson one of those four from four teams and he is seen considerably different, as in greater.