RealGM

Peak only, how would you rank them from 1-4?

Kawhi
D.Rob

Wade

Kobe

High- Mid Teens: Kobe, Wade
Low Teens - High 20s: Robinson, Kawhi

Kobe - Robinson / Wade - Kawhi

Robinson
Wade
Kobe
Kawhi

Wade - Admiral - Kobe - Kawhi

I worry about anyone who thinks peak Robo-Jordan isn't 1st on this list. Yeh, maybe you could talk your way into putting D.Rob over him. Other than that though what would the argument even be? He's better on O and D, and plays a more valuable position than Wade or Kobe. The stats favour him too, and it's not even close.

Take Kawhi 2017 vs Kobe 2008, which are the 2 years generally regarded as each players best year. Kawhi's so much better it's not funny.

Kawhi RS: 38.9 pp100, 8.9 rp100, 5.4 ap100, 610 TS%, 121 Ortg/102 Drth
Kawhi PS: 39.8 pp100, 11.2 rp100, 6.6 ap100, 672 TS%, 136 Ortg/110 Drtg

Kobe 2008 RS: 36.5 pp100, 8.1 rp100, 6.9 ap100, 576 TS%, 115 Ortg/105 Drtg
Kobe 2008 PS: 38 pp100, 7.1 rp100, 7 ap100, 577 TS%, 113 Ortg/108 Drtg.

Kawhi is better on D and O, and has physical capabilities Kobe lacks. The only thing you can say about Kobe is he's a better passer, though Kawhi improved that later too it seemed. Regardless, that can't offset everything else.

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Drob
4. Kawhi

Kawhi doesn't have a peak. He's too fragile to actually carry a team

KobesScarf wrote:Kawhi doesn't have a peak. He's too fragile to actually carry a team

Peak can be as little as 1 season, and Kawhi has multiple seasons of play that could be called his peak.

I'm not sure we can say Kobe ever carried a team in the sense you mean it. Kobe supplemented teams that were already good.

One_and_Done wrote:I'm not sure we can say Kobe ever carried a team in the sense you mean it. Kobe supplemented teams that were already good.

This is literally a definition of what Kawhi does throughout his career.

Kawhi is similar in that he's like a better version of Kobe; you add him to a good team to make them great. That said he's also shown decent floor raising, even if he's not exactly a guy you look to build a whole system around unless you have to.

One_and_Done wrote:Kawhi is similar in that he's like a better version of Kobe; you add him to a good team to make them great. That said he's also shown decent floor raising, even if he's not exactly a guy you look to build a whole system around unless you have to.

When did Kawhi ever show floor raising ability?

Kobe
Wade
Kawhi
D-Rob

Well, to start with how good do you think the 2017 Spurs really were? Tony Parker looked pretty washed by that point. Pau was old & such a bad fit with the starters they soon benched him for Dedmon. D.Green was still a good 3&D player, and LMA was a low level all-star, but that hardly looks like the support cast for a 61 win team with a 7.13 SRS. In my view Kawhi should have been MVP that year, as he largely carried the Spurs.

I could give other examples, but that looks like the clearest. Like I said, he's better used as a weapon rather than a system, but he's such a devastating weapon he can do both to some degree.

One_and_Done wrote:Well, to start with how good do you think the 2017 Spurs really were? Tony Parker looked pretty washed by that point. Pau was old & such a bad fit with the starters they soon benched him for Dedmon. D.Green was still a good 3&D player, and LMA was a low level all-star, but that hardly looks like the support cast for a 61 win team with a 7.13 SRS. In my view Kawhi should have been MVP that year, as he largely carried the Spurs.

I could give other examples, but that looks like the clearest. Like I said, he's better used as a weapon rather than a system, but he's such a devastating weapon he can do both to some degree.

Yeah, but the Spurs with horrible off-court situation and even older roster still managed to win 47 wins in the next year without Kawhi. If that's the clearest example, then you basically proved my point.

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Well, to start with how good do you think the 2017 Spurs really were? Tony Parker looked pretty washed by that point. Pau was old & such a bad fit with the starters they soon benched him for Dedmon. D.Green was still a good 3&D player, and LMA was a low level all-star, but that hardly looks like the support cast for a 61 win team with a 7.13 SRS. In my view Kawhi should have been MVP that year, as he largely carried the Spurs.

I could give other examples, but that looks like the clearest. Like I said, he's better used as a weapon rather than a system, but he's such a devastating weapon he can do both to some degree.

Yeah, but the Spurs with horrible off-court situation and even older roster still managed to win 47 wins in the next year without Kawhi. If that's the clearest example, then you basically proved my point.

As I said, improvement isn't linear. It's alot harder to get from 41 wins to 61 wins than 21 to 41. Their SRS was less than 3 in 2018, and they were gutting it out in close games to get to 47 wins. The 61 win team coasted, and had an SRS of over 7. The Spurs also added Rudy Gay, and got bigger contributions through the internal improvement of Slow Mo and Forbes.

I don't think Kawhi's examples of floor raising are as great as some, which is why I've agreed to an extent. But he was more of a floor raiser than Kobe.

RegularSeason+Playoffs: Kawhi, Kobe, Robinson, Wade

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Kawhi is similar in that he's like a better version of Kobe; you add him to a good team to make them great. That said he's also shown decent floor raising, even if he's not exactly a guy you look to build a whole system around unless you have to.

When did Kawhi ever show floor raising ability?

One_and_Done wrote:Well, to start with how good do you think the 2017 Spurs really were? Tony Parker looked pretty washed by that point. Pau was old & such a bad fit with the starters they soon benched him for Dedmon. D.Green was still a good 3&D player, and LMA was a low level all-star, but that hardly looks like the support cast for a 61 win team with a 7.13 SRS. In my view Kawhi should have been MVP that year, as he largely carried the Spurs.

I could give other examples, but that looks like the clearest. Like I said, he's better used as a weapon rather than a system, but he's such a devastating weapon he can do both to some degree.

Spurs, via Kawhi's on (+8.5) and on-off (+1.6), were circa (I say "circa" for any margin of error from rounding) +6.9 per 100 possessions. This over 1487 (3961 - 2474) minutes.

Plus minus is a somewhat crude tool, lineups on both sides will affect this. But there's a fair minutes sample there (for a superstar off sample) during which those lineups a very strong numerical (indicator of) floor.

This isn't to say KL isn't good, or couldn't floor raise (my main criticism in this peaks context would be he's a bit Bird-y in not putting together his best in shooting and passing and defense and motor [and health] all at once - fwiw, circling back to floor raising Bird did seem to indicate floor raining on arrival [with some though none huge other changes] but early to mid Bird was consistently at circa 3000 minutes, an important aspect of floor raising if the team is reliant on you). What is meant by floor raising can differ. But I would say a team that was that good with you off the floor (even if one thinks the exact number is flattering, lucky, lineup related etc) does little to afford a chance to show floor raising.

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Well, to start with how good do you think the 2017 Spurs really were? Tony Parker looked pretty washed by that point. Pau was old & such a bad fit with the starters they soon benched him for Dedmon. D.Green was still a good 3&D player, and LMA was a low level all-star, but that hardly looks like the support cast for a 61 win team with a 7.13 SRS. In my view Kawhi should have been MVP that year, as he largely carried the Spurs.

I could give other examples, but that looks like the clearest. Like I said, he's better used as a weapon rather than a system, but he's such a devastating weapon he can do both to some degree.

Yeah, but the Spurs with horrible off-court situation and even older roster still managed to win 47 wins in the next year without Kawhi. If that's the clearest example, then you basically proved my point.

As I said, improvement isn't linear. It's alot harder to get from 41 wins to 61 wins than 21 to 41. Their SRS was less than 3 in 2018, and they were gutting it out in close games to get to 47 wins. The 61 win team coasted, and had an SRS of over 7. The Spurs also added Rudy Gay, and got bigger contributions through the internal improvement of Slow Mo and Forbes.

I don't think Kawhi's examples of floor raising are as great as some, which is why I've agreed to an extent. But he was more of a floor raiser than Kobe.

Well, if you want to convince me that Kawhi provided a big impact on teams he played in, that's true and I never denied that. I just don't understand how you can say he's superior floor raiser when he literally never played on a bad team. Kawhi never had to carry his team and be the whole centre of the whole offensive system in a way Kobe was in some seasons.

It's fair to pick Kawhi if that's your opinion, but it's another time when I see completely baseless criticism regarding Kobe. At least we can say that Kobe managed to force his bad teams to the playoffs with very limited help. We have never seen Kawhi doing anything like that.