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So from 2008-09 to 2011-2012, Russ is on the Rockets and Lowry is on the Thunder
From 2012-13 to 2018-2019, Russ is on the Raptors and Lowry is on the Thunder
For 2019-2020 Russ is on the Raptors and Lowry is on the Rockets
For 2020-21 Russ is on the Raptors and Lowry is on the Wizards
For 2021-22 Russ is on the Heat, and Lowry is on the Lakers
For 2022-23 Russ is on the Heat, and Lowry is traded to the clippers from the lakers.

Are there any years that the raptors, thunder, rockets, heat, lakers, clippers, or wizards do remarkably better. I thought this would be interesting because russell is seen as high impact but doesn't always fit the best and lowry is seen as the perfect 2nd/3rd option point guard. Also Lowry took a lot longer to get to his peak.

Well for one thing, 2019 Raptors do not win the championship.

But wow, just the idea of Lowry running those thunder teams with Durant… it just makes you think.

I think the 2012 Finals go further than five, and OKC winning that series isn’t out of the question by any means. I’m having a hard time thinking about how everything else turns out in regards to the other teams, but I think OKC definitely experiences more success with Lowry than Westbrook. How much is hard to say, but they definitely would have been consistently better.

TheLand13 wrote:Well for one thing, 2019 Raptors do not win the championship.

But wow, just the idea of Lowry running those thunder teams with Durant… it just makes you think.

I think the 2012 Finals go further than five, and OKC winning that series isn’t out of the question by any means. I’m having a hard time thinking about how everything else turns out in regards to the other teams, but I think OKC definitely experiences more success with Lowry than Westbrook. How much is hard to say, but they definitely would have been consistently better.

Is there any years you think russ makes his team better than lowry?

RSCD3_ wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:Well for one thing, 2019 Raptors do not win the championship.

But wow, just the idea of Lowry running those thunder teams with Durant… it just makes you think.

I think the 2012 Finals go further than five, and OKC winning that series isn’t out of the question by any means. I’m having a hard time thinking about how everything else turns out in regards to the other teams, but I think OKC definitely experiences more success with Lowry than Westbrook. How much is hard to say, but they definitely would have been consistently better.

Is there any years you think russ makes his team better than lowry?

Not really, no.

^ nasty

kyle lowry was a horrendous playoff performer until kawhi took all of the burden off of him in 2019. by the same resiliency stat that i just calculated with joel embiid as by far the worst playoff dropper at -0.530, kyle lowry from 2014 to 2017 posts an astounding -0.725. toronto constantly lost the first game at home, constantly lost in the first round, constantly got humiliated by lebron, culminating in the 2018 lebronto series. there's a reason he and demar were called the Trash Bros back in the that time. kawhi in the 2019 playoffs has done a lot to lift the perception around lowry as some sort of good playoff performer. he's certainly been better in recent years (a horrible year in 2022 notwithstanding) and provides value in ways westbrook never did, but westbrook was a dynamo in OKC and has arguments over durant in certain playoff years.

2012 lowry isn't even thinking of getting the thunder to the finals and 2016 lowry isn't coming close to beating the spurs, much less the warriors.

f4p wrote:kyle lowry was a horrendous playoff performer until kawhi took all of the burden off of him in 2019. by the same resiliency stat that i just calculated with joel embiid as by far the worst playoff dropper at -0.530, kyle lowry from 2014 to 2017 posts an astounding -0.725. toronto constantly lost the first game at home, constantly lost in the first round, constantly got humiliated by lebron, culminating in the 2018 lebronto series. there's a reason he and demar were called the Trash Bros back in the that time. kawhi in the 2019 playoffs has done a lot to lift the perception around lowry as some sort of good playoff performer. he's certainly been better in recent years (a horrible year in 2022 notwithstanding) and provides value in ways westbrook never did, but westbrook was a dynamo in OKC and has arguments over durant in certain playoff years.

2012 lowry isn't even thinking of getting the thunder to the finals and 2016 lowry isn't coming close to beating the spurs, much less the warriors.

This is a little bit harsh on Kyle Lowry. Yes, he had some poor playoff series, but the Raptors were almost always much much better with him on court than off court.

Also, vs. 2017 Cavs, in 2 games he had 56/67/90 splits, 69% TS, 20/8.

In 2018 vs the Cavs, he had 18/9 on 74% TS, 22/8 on 80% TS in the first three games. LeBronto wasn’t his fault.

I think people forget how much of a monster OKC Westbrook was in a playoff setting. Of course the scoring /spacing problems have almost always been there, but he compensated (and then some) offensively with a physically imposing amount of pressure put on the basket and an all-time ability to create for teammates off of it.



https://imgur.com/gallery/GHFYfc8

Westbrook is getting underrated in this thread.

TheLand13 wrote:

RSCD3_ wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:Well for one thing, 2019 Raptors do not win the championship.

But wow, just the idea of Lowry running those thunder teams with Durant… it just makes you think.

I think the 2012 Finals go further than five, and OKC winning that series isn’t out of the question by any means. I’m having a hard time thinking about how everything else turns out in regards to the other teams, but I think OKC definitely experiences more success with Lowry than Westbrook. How much is hard to say, but they definitely would have been consistently better.

Is there any years you think russ makes his team better than lowry?

Not really, no.

espn has done irreversible damage

There are scenarios where they keep Harden and I could see Lowry being a better 3rd wheel, but as is OKC needed too much creation from the PG spot for Lowry to handle it and do all the little things at the same level he achieved.

Sure, the Lowry from the last few years might be more useful than Russ.

f4p wrote:kyle lowry was a horrendous playoff performer until kawhi took all of the burden off of him in 2019. by the same resiliency stat that i just calculated with joel embiid as by far the worst playoff dropper at -0.530, kyle lowry from 2014 to 2017 posts an astounding -0.725. toronto constantly lost the first game at home, constantly lost in the first round, constantly got humiliated by lebron, culminating in the 2018 lebronto series. there's a reason he and demar were called the Trash Bros back in the that time. kawhi in the 2019 playoffs has done a lot to lift the perception around lowry as some sort of good playoff performer. he's certainly been better in recent years (a horrible year in 2022 notwithstanding) and provides value in ways westbrook never did, but westbrook was a dynamo in OKC and has arguments over durant in certain playoff years.

2012 lowry isn't even thinking of getting the thunder to the finals and 2016 lowry isn't coming close to beating the spurs, much less the warriors.

Yes. kawhi leonard resliency king. He and his teams really tore through the playoffs in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022 and 2023...

Wait no. They literally underperform almost every-time whether he's healthy or injured. Excepting when he was a role-player or when he sandbagged a regular-season with one of the most loaded casts in history.

Curious you decided to use 2017 and 2018 instead of 2020. Hmm I wonder if there were any changes like a...
-> all-time defensive anchor whose arrival literally coincided with one of the playoff defenses ever(unaffected without Kawhi)
-> replacing a playoff fraud with arguably the best coach in the league

No. No. Was definitely all Kawhi. The guy who literally got outclassed by playoff-choker Steph during his one and only successful superstar run with better help than everyone else...

And also got outclassed by Westbrook on a 70-win srs team but ya know...details

OhayoKD wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:

RSCD3_ wrote:
Is there any years you think russ makes his team better than lowry?

Not really, no.

espn has done irreversible damage

Explain

TheLand13 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:
Not really, no.

espn has done irreversible damage

Explain

Westbrook is a vastly better player than Lowry that destroys him by any objective emperical approach, is an all-time elevator in the postseason by box or impact, an all-time elevator against all-time opponents who has literally destroyed or pushed various all-time teams to the brink(without great spacing).

I'm going to guess this is a matter of scoring bias, you getting sucked into "cieling-raising" theorem without actually thinking if it tracks with what actually happens and has happened, or the whole "westbrook was never a winner" because people try to project his current and recent performances with what he offers/offered at his peak(all 3 are pushed to a degree by espn though i suppose the 2 is more of a ben taylor thing)

rk2023 wrote:I think people forget how much of a monster OKC Westbrook was in a playoff setting. Of course the scoring /spacing problems have almost always been there, but he compensated (and then some) offensively with a physically imposing amount of pressure put on the basket and an all-time ability to create for teammates off of it.

Read on Twitter

https://imgur.com/gallery/GHFYfc8

.528 ball-dominance in those playoffs for Westbrook. Doncic in 2022 was at .525

Also in 2016:

.390 for Kyrie
.350 for Curry
.320 for LeBron
.184 for Durant

homecourtloss wrote:

rk2023 wrote:I think people forget how much of a monster OKC Westbrook was in a playoff setting. Of course the scoring /spacing problems have almost always been there, but he compensated (and then some) offensively with a physically imposing amount of pressure put on the basket and an all-time ability to create for teammates off of it.

Read on Twitter

https://imgur.com/gallery/GHFYfc8

.528 ball-dominance in those playoffs for Westbrook. Doncic in 2022 was at .525

Also:

.390 for Kyrie
.350 for Curry
.320 for LeBron
.184 for Durant

Well he certainly ball-dominated the 14 Clippers, the 14 Spurs, the 16 Spurs and the 16 Warriors.

OhayoKD wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

rk2023 wrote:I think people forget how much of a monster OKC Westbrook was in a playoff setting. Of course the scoring /spacing problems have almost always been there, but he compensated (and then some) offensively with a physically imposing amount of pressure put on the basket and an all-time ability to create for teammates off of it.

Read on Twitter

https://imgur.com/gallery/GHFYfc8

.528 ball-dominance in those playoffs for Westbrook. Doncic in 2022 was at .525

Also:

.390 for Kyrie
.350 for Curry
.320 for LeBron
.184 for Durant

Well he certainly ball-dominated the 14 Clippers, the 14 Spurs, the 16 Spurs and the 16 Warriors.

homecourtloss wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
.528 ball-dominance in those playoffs for Westbrook. Doncic in 2022 was at .525

Also:

.390 for Kyrie
.350 for Curry
.320 for LeBron
.184 for Durant

Well he certainly ball-dominated the 14 Clippers, the 14 Spurs, the 16 Spurs and the 16 Warriors.

For reference, here's how OKC compared from 13-16 in different KD-Westbrook on/off permutations compared to Cleveland with James/Irving.

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612760&Season=2013-14,2014-15,2015-16,2012-13&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=201142,201566&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612739&Season=2014-15,2016-17,2015-16&SeasonType=All&PlayerIds=2544,202681&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

f4p wrote:kyle lowry was a horrendous playoff performer until kawhi took all of the burden off of him in 2019. by the same resiliency stat that i just calculated with joel embiid as by far the worst playoff dropper at -0.530, kyle lowry from 2014 to 2017 posts an astounding -0.725. toronto constantly lost the first game at home, constantly lost in the first round, constantly got humiliated by lebron, culminating in the 2018 lebronto series. there's a reason he and demar were called the Trash Bros back in the that time. kawhi in the 2019 playoffs has done a lot to lift the perception around lowry as some sort of good playoff performer. he's certainly been better in recent years (a horrible year in 2022 notwithstanding) and provides value in ways westbrook never did, but westbrook was a dynamo in OKC and has arguments over durant in certain playoff years.

2012 lowry isn't even thinking of getting the thunder to the finals and 2016 lowry isn't coming close to beating the spurs, much less the warriors.

This is wildly inaccurate. Lowry was very good or great in all but 2 playoff series in his non-Kawhi Raptors career (2015 Wizards where he was injured and round one vs. the Pacers in 2016).

From 2016-2018 Lowry put up 18/7/4 on 55% TS with 2.9 TO's. Since you want to exclude 2019, in 2020 Lowry put up 17/6/7 on 56% TS with 2.5 TO's. And always with monster on/off splits.

Let’s look at elimination games shall we? (Excluding game 4’s of a sweep, because those have a very different vibe) In those games from 2014-2018 and 2020, Lowry put up 26/6/6 on 59% TS with 2.7 TO’s.

Rapcity_11 wrote:

f4p wrote:kyle lowry was a horrendous playoff performer until kawhi took all of the burden off of him in 2019. by the same resiliency stat that i just calculated with joel embiid as by far the worst playoff dropper at -0.530, kyle lowry from 2014 to 2017 posts an astounding -0.725. toronto constantly lost the first game at home, constantly lost in the first round, constantly got humiliated by lebron, culminating in the 2018 lebronto series. there's a reason he and demar were called the Trash Bros back in the that time. kawhi in the 2019 playoffs has done a lot to lift the perception around lowry as some sort of good playoff performer. he's certainly been better in recent years (a horrible year in 2022 notwithstanding) and provides value in ways westbrook never did, but westbrook was a dynamo in OKC and has arguments over durant in certain playoff years.

2012 lowry isn't even thinking of getting the thunder to the finals and 2016 lowry isn't coming close to beating the spurs, much less the warriors.

This is wildly inaccurate. Lowry was very good or great in all but 2 playoff series in his non-Kawhi Raptors career (2015 Wizards where he was injured and round one vs. the Pacers in 2016).

From 2016-2018 Lowry put up 18/7/4 on 55% TS with 2.9 TO's. Since you want to exclude 2019, in 2020 Lowry put up 17/6/7 on 56% TS with 2.5 TO's. And always with monster on/off splits.

Let’s look at elimination games shall we? (Excluding game 4’s of a sweep, because those have a very different vibe) In those games from 2014-2018 and 2020, Lowry put up 26/6/6 on 59% TS with 2.7 TO’s.

Yup. The media lumped Demar/Lowry together but one was significantly better than the other.