cupcakesnake wrote:OhayoKD wrote:cupcakesnake wrote:Vote: Bird
Alternate: Mikan
- People bring his defense down. There are things I don't like about Bird's defense (mostly guarding the ball) but the tape shows that Bird was able to add defensive value in a ton of ways.
I think once you realize Bird isn't an on-ball mega creator, maybe that's disappointing to some people that imagined he was that? What I see in Bird as a 6'9" Kyle Lowry/Jimmy Butler type. A hustling maniac with a giant brain that creates value in the margins whenever he can't dominate his matchup. He may of lacked a bit in terms of force with the ball in his hands, but he more than made up for that with his unparalleled combination of size, skill, motor, and smarts. Bird could really scramble defenses and create a lot of chaos on both ends.
I'm very high on Bird's defense. He was a total tweener in terms of matchups, but lordy did he ever have great hands, anticipation, motor, and toughness. While lots of star scorers get put in the "free safety" position to conserve them for offense, Bird was one of the best at it. Especially playing with a large frontline, his timing on digs and doubles was tremendous.
I also think his on-ball scoring is getting knocked down a bit too far. The handles aren't special (but relative to era, what other guys his size were doing what he did with the ball in his hands), but his footwork and scoring touch let him create plenty for himself against 95% of defenses. I don't have him in the 1% of on-ball creators, but I don't have him that much lower.
So I think the main contention is that Bird is not a mega-creator period(or at least on a level of a jordan, steph, lebron, or magic(ordered in terms of how their advanced creation stacks up)), not "mega-on ball"(partially because as you say, no one was generating massive value with the 3-point shot). But I'll set that aside since it's been discussed to death.
I guess what I'm more curious is how you say "on-ball d" as the biggest factor and then note the "with a large frontline". Take peak Bird where the motor has dropped significantly even according to those who view him as a dpoy as a rookie. Are you confident you would think of him as a positive if I replace mchale with an equally talented small-forward and asked Bird to defend opposing bigs?
I think the limited paint-protection is a much bigger concern, How sure are you he'd look better than say Jokic for example?
Don't we have plenty of footage of that though? Cedric Maxwell started at SF with Bird at PF until 1985. The defensive results were very good, but not elite. McHale becomes the full-time starter in '86 and instantly produces the best defensive season (by rDrtg) of that era of Celtic basketball. But there's too many other factors there to get a really clean read. Bill Walton replacing McHale as the backup big.
They don't sustain this defensive dominance, and for the rest of the Bird era they're an offensive team that treads water defensively. Bird's health cleanly lines up with the team's defensive decline but there are plenty of other factors. Walton doesn't stay healthy in year 2, and the team keeps getting older.
Young Bird could take a lot more defensive responsibility. There's plenty of early 80s footage of Bird ably battling in the paint with Moses, Kareem, and mid 80s footage against rookie Hakeem. We think of Bird's injury problems really becoming obvious in 1988, but on defense you see some of his defensive tools start to degrade after 1985. He looked uncomfortable guarding post-ups against bigger players (this is around when the Laimbeer thing becomes a big deal). I think Bird moving to small forward was partially motivated by his decreasing ability to handle physicality.
This is fair, but then we shouldn't be giving *peak(or at least what is conventionally thought of as peak bird) that same defensive evaluation. Of course I guess this preface a case that Bird didn't peak the year his team did(similar to 91 being assumed as Micheal's peak despite a defensive-drop off because that's when the Bulls won). Nonetheless from your writeup are you sure you're not projecting Bird's earlier defense onto his later years when you're evaluating him?
Obviously Bird isn't a primary rim protector, and his later struggles guarding the ball mean he's only providing value as a roamer. That version of Bird you probably don't want at power forward where he's stuck either guarding a post up or protecting the rim while Parish guards the post up. That's not ideal. But I'm curious what you're including in "paint-protection" because I think Bird's disruptiveness always helped with protecting the paint.
Generally anything that deters or prevents shots at the rim. From what I've seen I'd say Bird could contribute in the paint as an oversized sf, but more often than not he wasn't really offering much deterrence which at SF is...fine, but at PF can be pretty problematic.
I think of 2020 Lebron a bit. Bron had really lost his 2-foot jump so struggled with any kind of vertical contest in the half-court (not just rim protection but contesting pull ups), but Bron was able to use his focus, strength, remaining mobility, and smarts to be pretty impactful as a secondary paint protector who did most of his damage on the horizontal. Bird didn't have Lebron's strength in these playtypes, but he did have way better hands and an ability to make life hell in the paint for passers and scorers.
I think there are two other significant differences between the two
1. Speed
Even if Lebron isn't going that high he gets to spots quicker and while he can't jump as high as he jump like he used to, he doesn't necessarily need to depending on the matchup. When Bird blocks Isiah he's doing it with multiple defenders forcing Isiah to go early and Bird rotates when Isiah has nowhere to go. When Lebron blocks or contests Murray, he's doing it straight up with comparatively minimal help(and this partially allows Davis to do his thing on the perimeter vs Lillard in the first round and Jokic in the conference finals).
2. Awareness/Play-reading
Bird doesn't really court-map the way a draymond, a kg, or a lebron does defensively. You can see this in the first possession of the "steal game" where Laimbeer cuts by him for a layup and in various breakdowns time-stamped in the time-stamps i listed from the first game of the 86 finals.
This somewhat limits him as a help guy, Iirc from when I was watching 86-88 there were alot of plays where Bird would jump --after-- a attacker had passed him.
I think his defense goes from good early to neutral post-85 injury to negative by 87. People seem to have him as good until 88 and I'm not sure I buy that. Even if he looked good(and from film-tracking and when I watched his playoffs before) he looks nuetral in 86, there's the context of him getting to play as an SF because Boston found a PF who can defend and handle, and pass, and score in isolation.
