RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #13 (Kobe Bryant)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 4:38 pm

Note that there will be NO Nomination vote in this thread because we just added two Nominees.

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. There will also be a Nomination vote where whoever gets nominated by the most voters gets added to the Nominee list for subsequent votes. This is again optional.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Kobe Bryant

George Mikan

Dirk Nowitzki

Oscar Robertson

David Robinson

Jerry West

Post #2 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 4:38 pm

Note that with the addition of the 2nd Nominee from last time in Dirk Nowitzki, there will be note Nominee vote this thread.

Two things I want everyone to see here:

1. There's enough interest in the 2nd Nomination vote that I'm going to add it effective for the #13 thread - aka THIS thread. Including a 2nd vote is optional, just as it is for the Induction vote, but I'll tally for those who include it.

2. We're getting some folks who keep going at each other's throats again and again. I believe we've had PMs with all the folks I'm thinking of, and the thing is, these are all guys who are smart, passionate, adding energy to the project. I don't want any of them booted, but it's pretty clear at this point that where things escalate, they tend to escalate again. People annoyed with other people from previous conversations tend to bring it into the next conversation.

I've recommended before that folks in these positions just ignore the other posters driving them up the wall, but it's still happening. The recommendation certainly still stands, but here's here's what to expect from moderation:

12-hour suspension when you cross the same tone line you've had before.

I'm hoping this won't be something I end up having to do more than once for anybody, but if this doesn't end up curtailing the issue, I think I'll be forced to boot you. Please don't make it come to that.

Doc

LukaTheGOAT · Post #3 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 4:48 pm

I think you meant to name it #13.

Thanks again for all your hard work in running this project. For example, the Sports Illustrated cover of David Robinson, is something new, that I had never seen.

lessthanjake · Post #4 » by **lessthanjake** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:30 pm

Vote for #13: Kobe Bryant
Alternate Vote: Jerry West

Nomination: Moses Malone
Alternate Nomination: Nikola Jokic

Kobe Bryant

The reasoning for my vote for Kobe Bryant is pretty simple to be honest. At this point, there’s just a big achievement gap between him and everyone else (besides Mikan, who just is too much of a dinosaur of basketball history for me to vote for at this point). As the #1 player on a team, he won 2 titles and made the finals another time, despite his team not being all *that* talented. And, while he wasn’t the #1 player on the three-peat Lakers, he was still a major part of it, and I put a good deal of weight on just how good the 2001 Lakers were, since it shows that obviously Kobe could be a major part of an all-time-level team.

I just don’t really see much of a case for the other guys when you look through a lens in which achievement in the game is a major part of the puzzle for a player’s greatness (which I do). Dirk got one title as a #1 player and that was very impressive, but it was just one and the rest of his career was mostly spent with varying degrees of playoff underachievement. Oscar Robertson has a title as the #2 on an all-time-level team, so that’s equivalent to Kobe in 2001, but he didn’t win a title as the #1 player, and he also wasn’t able to get more than one title with Kareem. Jerry West was great, but only managed to actually get one title, despite tons of chances, including in years where his team was probably the most talented. David Robinson never got a title as the clear #1 player (though I understand there’s some debate whether he was at Duncan’s level in 1999), and one of his two titles was legitimately as a role player. Meanwhile, while Mikan has the team achievement, I just can’t vote for someone from his era yet, since I just don’t regard that era of basketball as having been equivalent. Mikan was basically just before my cutoff where I’m willing to consider players in mostly era-relative terms.

I realize that this is mostly a “ringz” argument, but ultimately the game is about winning titles, and so if we’re determining who were the greatest players, that has to be a major element of the equation, such that a huge gap in this regard can be determinative. Would Kobe have necessarily won more in some of these other players’ situations? Maybe not. I don’t know. But these players’ careers are what they are, and, to some degree a player’s “greatness” in team sports comes down to luck of what team they were on. Whether it’s because he was a better player or just had luckier situations, I think Kobe Bryant was ultimately “greater” than the other nominees.

Jerry West

I don’t have a long explanation for Jerry West, nor do I feel strongly about this. He’s above Mikan for reasons I’ve already mentioned. I just think he was a better player than Dirk—whose career I saw in its entirety and who I never really regarded as truly being in the conversation for best player in the league. David Robinson may well have been as good or better than West—we have some impact data on Robinson that looks great, for instance. But his longevity as one of the top few players in the league just scares me off a bit, especially when I also don’t think Robinson was ever quite the league’s best player or anything. He just was one of the best few players for a span of time that wasn’t actually all that long. Meanwhile, Oscar vs. West is a difficult one. I’ve been a bit convinced by some stuff that’s been posted highlighting West’s defense, so that’s mostly why I’m going with West. That said, I don’t feel very strongly about this, and might ultimately end up voting for Oscar or Robinson over West in later rounds (assuming Kobe gets in here).

Nominations

I’ve explained why I’m nominating Moses Malone in earlier threads, so I’ll just refer back to that.

As for Jokic being my alternate, obviously longevity is a bit of an issue with Jokic since he’s only in the middle of his career. But I honestly think his level the last few years is as good as anyone’s peak, and he now has a title with an all-time-level playoff performance to go along with it. So, at this stage of the game, it just seems to me that that peak level outweighs the longevity disadvantage compared to other people that could be nominated (bear in mind: I probably value peak more than most), and his achievement isn’t really leaving anything on the table (and is better than some other potential nominees, such as Karl Malone).

HeartBreakKid · Post #5 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:41 pm

Does anyone want to break down Robertson vs West? My votes are between those two, just have to figure out the order.

rk2023 · Post #6 » by **rk2023** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:49 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Does anyone want to break down Robertson vs West? My votes are between those two, just have to figure out the order.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5hd8FSusNH0gxNYm4SfkgU?si=nlz0IbCsQV2NR14T22UV5A

Was a very enjoyable listen and decently nuanced on both of them (worth mentioning Ben, now and then, rates Oscar higher than West)

Post #7 » by **cupcakesnake** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:50 pm

lessthanjake wrote:Vote for #13: Kobe Bryant
Alternate Vote: Jerry West

Nomination: Moses Malone
Alternate Nomination: Nikola Jokic

Kobe Bryant

The reasoning for my vote for Kobe Bryant is pretty simple to be honest. At this point, there’s just a big achievement gap between him and everyone else (besides Mikan, who just is too much of a dinosaur of basketball history for me to vote for at this point). As the #1 player on a team, he won 2 titles and made the finals another time, despite his team not being all *that* talented. And, while he wasn’t the #1 player on the three-peat Lakers, he was still a major part of it, and I put a good deal of weight on just how good the 2001 Lakers were, since it shows that obviously Kobe could be a major part of an all-time-level team.

I just don’t really see much of a case for the other guys when you look through a lens in which achievement in the game is a major part of the puzzle for a player’s greatness (which I do). Dirk got one title as a #1 player and that was very impressive, but it was just one and the rest of his career was mostly spent with varying degrees of playoff underachievement. Oscar Robertson has a title as the #2 on an all-time-level team, so that’s equivalent to Kobe in 2001, but he didn’t win a title as the #1 player, and he also wasn’t able to get more than one title with Kareem. Jerry West was great, but only managed to actually get one title, despite tons of chances, including in years where his team was probably the most talented. David Robinson never got a title as the clear #1 player (though I understand there’s some debate whether he was at Duncan’s level in 1999), and one of his two titles was legitimately as a role player. Meanwhile, while Mikan has the team achievement, I just can’t vote for someone from his era yet, since I just don’t regard that era of basketball as having been equivalent. Mikan was basically just before my cutoff where I’m willing to consider players in mostly era-relative terms.

I realize that this is mostly a “ringz” argument, but ultimately the game is about winning titles, and so if we’re determining who were the greatest players, that has to be a major element of the equation, such that a huge gap in this regard can be determinative. Would Kobe have necessarily won more in some of these other players’ situations? Maybe not. I don’t know. But these players’ careers are what they are, and, to some degree a player’s “greatness” in team sports comes down to luck of what team they were on. Whether it’s because he was a better player or just had luckier situations, I think Kobe Bryant was ultimately “greater” than the other nominees.

I'm not trying to control the criteria here, but for projects like this I don't care very much about achievements. The achievements are the things we already know and are undebatable: who won the game, who won the championship, who got how many media votes.

There's not much doubt that Kobe is one of the most decorated careers ever, but does that mean he was one of the best players in terms of impact on winning? Maybe he was, but I'm not using achievements to determine that.

I look at Kobe (along with Bird, Duncan, Magic, Russell, Shaq, Curry) as being all-time great players with very good career fortune. They all have a type of career where they either walked into a winning environment, and/or got to spend the majority of their careers in a winning environmeny (which they of course helped create and sustain). On the opposite end we Hakeem, KG, Wilt, West etc. as with murkier "achievements" because they played in less ideal circumstances throughout their careers. The winning bias is hard to weigh.

I more want to figure out "impact" than argue "greatness". I don't really believe in the later.

ZeppelinPage · Post #8 » by **ZeppelinPage** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:54 pm

Vote: Jerry West
Nomination: Moses Malone

I was considering a few different players here, both older and modern. I value rebounding highly and what Moses was able to do in the playoffs. Few were able to haul down offensive rebounds like Moses. I can see arguments for other players but his performances and how he was able to impact the game places him above the competition for me. Now, onto West:

Rk2023's Post on Jerry West

Total Career Minutes Among Players Inducted or Nominated:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 66,297
LeBron James: 65,747
Kobe Bryant: 57,278
Tim Duncan: 56,738
Kevin Garnett: 55,701
Wilt Chamberlain: 55,418
Shaquille O'Neal: 50,016
Hakeem Olajuwon: 49,971
Michael Jordan: 48,485
Bill Russell: 48,223
Jerry West: 42,892
Larry Bird: 41,329
Magic Johnson: 40,783
Stephen Curry: 35,794
George Mikan: 9,850

As much as West was injured during the regular season, he was routinely making the Finals and those minutes add up. So, considering the fact that Magic's and Steph's careers were enough to place them in the top 11, did West play enough to warrant voting him in here? While durability is something often harped on with West, I believe he still played enough minutes (especially in the playoffs) to keep that from being a problem.

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Everyone here is knowledgeable enough to know just how good West was on offense during his time. His TS+ numbers on such a high volume are among the greatest ever. He was a fantastic all-around player that could drive or utilize his lighting fast pull-up to catch defenders off-guard.

What I did want to bring to light was Jerry West's defensive ability. Earlier I saw someone mention something along the lines of "West was a good defender but nothing spectacular" so I did want to go into a little more detail about what coaches, players, and writers of the time thought about West's defense. This is important because, while there is a good amount of footage on West out there, nobody watched West more than these contemporary sources. Afterwards, I wanted to show more of what West can do on film.

"I don't even like to talk about myself but I think I would have set a steal record that no one would have ever come close to--no one."
-- Jerry West on Point Forward with Andre Igoudala and Evan Turner

"I think the best player that I had play defense against me was Jerry West."
-- Sam Jones in a 2011 ESPN interview

Jerry West was around 6'5" in shoes. He's spoken about his athletic abilities before, but he was quite a standout in his era and would hold up even today. He was quick, long (around a 6'9" wingspan), and could jump higher than most players.

Through my research I've found what seems like countless mentions of Jerry West's defense. His stealing and blocking ability was frequently mentioned:

"Certainly, he blocks more shots than any other guard ever and more than most centers. Then, too, he breaks up a lot of plays."
-- Bill Sharman in 1965, years before he coached West

Spoiler:

"Jerry is a superstar on offense who can be just as valuable on defense and you can't find too many of those around . . . He blocks more shots than any other guard."
-- Warriors Coach Bill Sharman in 1967, years before he coached West

Spoiler:

"At his position, nobody does as good an all-around job. Bill Russell is 6-10, so he is big enough to plug up the middle, but West deflects more passes and blocks a lot of shots."
-- Fred Schaus in 1967

Spoiler:

"...I lost count of all his steals and blocked shots."
--Basketball column by John Hall following 1968 Western Conference Finals

Spoiler:

"Sure, Jerry gets a lot of steals, but people often overlook how many times he touches the ball on defense during the game. He has the quickest hands of any player I've ever seen."
-- Hot Rod Hundley on West in 1969

Spoiler:

"[Jerry West] merely leads the NBA in assists and the world in steals, deflected passes and broken dribbles."
-- 1970

Spoiler:

Jerry West records 7 steals in the 3rd quarter against the Sonics:

Spoiler:

Jerry West records 9 steals and a "few" blocks:

Spoiler:

Jerry West records 10 steals in three quarters:

Spoiler:

Jerry West records 12 steals against the Phoenix Suns in the 1970 playoffs:

Spoiler:

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Praise of West's general defensive abilities was also common:

"Right close by his offensive prowess was his defensive ability, and to me, Jerry West was the most underrated defensive player in that era."
-- Red Auerbach

"West is the greatest superstar in the league at both ends of the court."
-- Warriors Coach Bill Sharman in 1968, years before he coached West

Spoiler:

"I've often said he's the best defensive guard EVER to play the game . . . I know he has two or three times more blocked shots than any guard who lived."
-- Lakers coach Bill Sharman in 1973

Spoiler:

"He is the best defensive guard in the league."
-- Chicago Bulls coach Johnny Kerr in 1968

Spoiler:

"It's the best defensive job done on me this year -- or any year for that matter."
-- Hall of Famer Lou Hudson after 1970 Western Conference Finals where Jerry West held him to 16.3 PPG on a 29 FG%

Spoiler:

"Jerry's defense is what they miss the most when he's not there . . . West gives more defensive effort when the other team has the ball than any other of the big offensive stars in the entire NBA."
--Cincinnati Royals player on West in 1964

Spoiler:

This is all just a snippet of many more mentions regarding West's defense that I have found, far too many to list here.

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Let's take a look at the film and see if it supports what contemporary accounts are telling us.

West has described "seeing the game in slow motion" and thinking about the game in "angles" as a key reason for his impactful defense. His long arms and quick hands could find these angles and poke the ball free. This, combined with his leaping ability, led to plays like this:

West Steal to Win Game 3 of 1962 Finals:

Spoiler:

West 3 Blocks vs Warriors - 1964:

Spoiler:

West 2-on-1 Transition Block into Steal (Lakers Coach Fred Schaus Commentating) - 1965:

Spoiler:

West Back-to-Back Steals at End of Game 7 of the 1966 Finals:

Spoiler:

West Steal and Block vs 76ers - 1969:

Spoiler:

West Pressuring and Deflecting - 1969 Western Conference Finals:

Spoiler:

West Blocks Sam Jones Twice and Steals Pass - Game 1 of 1969 Finals:

Spoiler:

West Disrupts Celtics in Transition for Steal and Reads Pass for Steal - Game 4 of 1969 Finals:

Spoiler:

West Uses Length to Strip Connie Hawkins - Game 7 of 1970 Western Division Semifinals:

Spoiler:

West Pokes Ball Away for Steal - 1970:

Spoiler:

West's threat level on defense could help negate the transition game of teams like the Celtics. In Game 7 of the 1962 NBA Finals, Jerry West falls back off missed shots to ensure he's there to disrupt the Celtics' fast break. Not only does he block this Sam Jones drive:

Spoiler:

But his presence alone was making it more difficult to pass or get open looks:

Spoiler:

Much like the written sources, this is but a tiny glimpse of West's defense, but he consistently displays this high-impact defense that is mentioned from people of the time period. I believe West is one of the greatest defenders of his era, and among the greatest stealers and off-ball defenders to ever play the game.

HeartBreakKid · Post #9 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 5:59 pm

ZeppelinPage wrote:Vote: Jerry West
Nomination: Moses Malone

.

Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

Post #10 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:11 pm

Vote: George Mikan

Yes, his era was weak and he probably wouldn't be Joel Embiid level in today's game. But you can only meet the challenges given to you and he is arguably the most dominant player in the history of the game. Russell type winning (for less years), Wilt/MJ type statistical dominance, Mikan is more deserving than Jerry West, who was nearly as dominant -- for a guard -- as Mikan but in an era where centers were significantly more valuable than anyone else on the floor. He's more deserving than Kobe, who was a terrific player for a long time but never really stood out from his peers to anywhere near the same degree, not as a scorer though he was playoff resilient, not as a playmaker/rebounder/defender. Mikan is the last true dominant player left and while his era was one of racism and relatively low athleticism (much of which is due to playing over boards laid over ice rinks or concrete, in canvas sneakers, with questionable understanding of training techniques), it was still NBA basketball, the best in the world.

Alternative: Jerry West All the arguments for Kobe can be made in a stronger fashion for Jerry West except for Rings, longevity, and modernity. Kobe was a great and playoff resilient scorer; West was significantly better as a scorer relative to the guards of his day (only Oscar, and in the later part of his career, Walt Frazier, came close) and stepped it up in stronger fashion in the finals (his main argument over Oscar). Kobe was (when he wanted to) a strong defensive guard, West was a much more consistent and from everything I understand, higher peaking defender as well. Kobe was a decent playmaker, West was a better one who started as a score first combo guard but by the end of his career, was also leading the NBA in assists. Great player, smart player, tough player, very high intangibles and leadership from everything I have ever read.

NOMINATE: I am going to throw a couple of current names out there to see what response they get. I may go back to Karl Malone and Julius Erving depending on what people think.

(a) Kevin Durant -- yes, his social media issues show a lack of maturity and leadership and many people hate him for going to the Warriors; if feels like bullying. But he is an incredibly efficient scorer with great size who has been one of the best in the league for a decade.

(b) Giannis -- short prime and I think that's a major issue, but I have his career as slightly better than Jokic's to this point though Jokic is more unique.

Post #11 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:14 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
ZeppelinPage wrote:Vote: Jerry West
Nomination: Moses Malone

.

Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

If I may answer -- ZeppelinPage just wrote half a page on West's defensive impact. Oscar led offenses were outstanding in Cincinnati but the defenses were generally not impressive and Oscar himself, while a great physical specimen who was stronger than almost all the guards he faced, didn't seem to be a difference maker on that end.

It also could be because West stepped it up in the playoffs, particularly in the finals, while Oscar didn't have nearly as many playoff opportunities and so couldn't match West in that regard.

One_and_Done · Post #12 » by **One_and_Done** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:21 pm

I may switch my preference later strategically, but for now it's an easy vote.

Vote: D.Rob

Alternate: West (because Dirk is getting no support)

Nominate: KD

Alternate nomination: K.Malone

As I've outlined a fair bit, D.Rob has the highest peak of the remaining players, combining a GOAT level defensive player in his prime with a superb if slightly flawed offensive player. He's just so far above the remaining candidates in that respect, that I don't care about his longevity; he has "enough" longevity that I'm just not fussed. I do go back and forth between him, Dirk and Dr J. But only one of those other candidates is available to me here, and for now I'm sticking with D.Rob. Dirk is the only other modern player left who actually plays like a modern player in most respects, and he's an easy #2 for me. If voting gets tight I'll switch, but on merit it's these two by far.

More on D.Rob:

Spoiler:

So who do I think we should nominate next. I’m torn between several candidates. First is KD, who would be my first choice for the reasons set out below. We now have nomination preferences so there's no reason not to just nominate KD every time until he gets in, with an alternate.

Spoiler:

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%

KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

I’d also be interested in Karl Malone, who has more longevity than most if not all remaining candidates, and whose case v.s Kobe I discussed below. Moses Malone has a lot of longevity also, but I am doubtful about how his game would translate today. He feels like a player who was built for a different era, and that holds him back a little.

Spoiler:

Dr J seems to have peaked higher than Kobe, who has already been nominated, as I discuss below.

Spoiler:

There’s also D.Rob, who doesn’t have great longevity, but arguably has “enough” that it doesn’t matter. Giannis is another player in this category. Yeh, sure, Giannis only has 10 years in the league; but when Jordan first retired he only had 9 and people were already calling him one of the greatest ever. In today’s game would Jordan really be more impactful than Giannis? I have my doubts. Just comparing Giannis/D.Rob/Dirk/Kobe’s best seasons, here’s how they come out:

Giannis 2019-23 – 42.6 pp100, 17.6 rp100, 8.4 ap100, 120 Ortg/103 Drtg, 625 TS%

D.Rob (pre-Duncan) prime 90-96 – 33.9 pp100, 15.6 rp100, 4.1 ap100, 118 Ortg/97 Drtg, 592 TS%

Dirk (post-Nash) prime 2005-11 RS – 35.7 pp100, 12.1 rp100, 4.2 ap100, 119 Ortg/104 Drtg, 586 TS%.

Kobe (post-Shaq) prime 2006-10 RS – 39.2 pp100, 7.3 rp100, 6.6ap100, 114 Ortg/106 Drtg, 565 TS%

How about playoffs?

Giannis 19-23: 39 pp100, 17.8 rp100, 7.5 apg, 113 Ortg/ 102 Drtg 580 TS%

D.Rob 90-96: 31.6 pp100, 15.5 rp100, 3.9 ap100, 113 Ortg/101 Drtg 557 TS%

Dirk 05-11: 34.3 pp100, 13.3 rp100, 3.9 ap100, 119 Ortg/107 Drtg, 586 TS%

Kobe 06-10: 38.1 pp100, 7.3 rp100, 6.9 ap100, 114 Ortg/108 Drtg, 570 TS%

So the first observation is that Giannis is the best of the bunch and it’s not close. The only reason not to take him yet is if you don’t think he has “enough” longevity. He isn’t just a force offensively, he’s one of the best defensive players you could have in the modern era. Defense is something that’s hard to measure, but I think we can all agree D.Rob and Giannis are 2 of the best defensive players ever. Then on the other end they’d only need to be solid to be in discussion here. But they’re not just solid. Giannis is flat out better than the rest on offense, and while D.Rob is the “worst” of the 4 in the playoffs on O, he’s still close enough that I don’t know that the others have much of a case over him given his all-time defensive anchoring ability. If you’re taking Dirk or Kobe it’s got to be on longevity. Kobe looks the worst on balance by far. He’s 2nd of the group on volume scoring, but he does it by having bad efficiency which is probably part of why his TS% is the worst of anyone except playoffs D.Rob, and his Ortg is the worst of the bunch on balance (because regular season isn’t worthless, your performance there adds a lot of value). Then factor in this is literally Kobe’s very best stretch. If we’d run this from 00-10 for instance, he’d look so much worse (see above comparison with KD).

Dirk’s high end run in the 2011 playoffs is a level of impact neither D.Rob nor Kobe had during a singular playoff run, putting up 39.1 pp100, 11.5 rp100, 3.6 ap100 on 115 Ortg/105 Drtg, and 609 TS% while taking out Kobe’s Lakers, KD’s Thunder, and Blazers, and the first incarnation of the Heatles, is crazy impressive. Yeh, they’d have gone down to the 2012 Heatles once they balanced the team a little and figured out the line-ups to play, etc, but nobody expected them to win that year. They weren’t even supposed to beat the Lakers, and they ka-rushed them. Check out the stat-line of 32 year old Kobe v.s 32 year old Dirk. It’s not pretty. Kobe had 23.3 ppg, 3rpg, 2.5 apg on 519 TS%, v.s Dirk’s 25.3ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.5apg on an insane 673 TS%.

On Kobe generally:

Spoiler:

I’ve talked a lot about the higher quality of modern basketball a lot throughout this project.

To my mind a fair amount changed in the NBA even between 2010 and 2011. By 2015 it had begun the process of turning into an almost different sport. In that sense, Kobe is no more of a modern player than Bird, because his entire prime happens before the changes to the league that warped it into a new sport. He was there for the introduction of the new rules that hyper-charged offenses from 2005 onwards, and he was there for the introduction of the new strong side defensive concepts which came in from 2008 onwards, but it’s notable that his prime appears to end in 2011, the same time that both concepts were adopted by a single team in the Mavericks (albeit to a limited extent).

By 2015 the Hibbert’s and Tony Allen’s of the NBA were finding they had no place, and the playstyles of inefficient Iso-kings like Melo had become untenable. I think Kobe was quite lucky his career ended when it did, as if he had been 5 years younger I think the flaws in his game would have received far more criticism; much like an elderly Kobe got over his final 2 years in the league.

This touches on something not sufficiently discussed, which is that Kobe was a terrible team mate who for a “modern” player had a play-style that was often the antithesis of today’s league. Look at him shooting his team out of the 2004 finals by refusing to pass to Shaq, because he was gunning for finals MVP. Look at his dreadful shot selection in 2008, and even 2010 where he relied on Pau to bail him out. Look at the horrid 2011 series where Dirk completely outplayed him. Kobe was a “my way or the high way” sort of guy, who caused a tonne of on-court and chemistry issues for his teams over the years with an attitude that would have seen him labelled as a cancer in today’s game. His game 7 v.s the 2006 Suns, where he deliberately refused to shoot in the 2nd half as a response to criticism that he should share the ball more, stands out as particularly Kyrie like in it’s childishness.

In order to be a player who could transcend the weaker eras of the NBA, you need to really stand out. Guys like Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and even Bird or D.Rob, pass this test. You can see the way Bird and D.Rob were the catalyst for the greatest team improvements in NBA history. You can see the floor raising of Duncan in 01-03, or Hakeem in 94, to lift bad teams into contender status. Then there’s Kobe. He starts getting minutes on a stacked Laker team, and in his years with Shaq we see a disturbing discrepancy. The Lakers play like a 60 win team in games Kobe misses, but Shaq plays. Invert that and Kobe is not even leading the Shaqless Lakers to 500 ball. We finally get to see Kobe without Shaq in 05-07, and it’s a disaster for his rep. He shows very limited floor raising compared to the all-time greats in discussion here. Then from 08 onwards he’s got a team so stacked they could win 50 games without him. Then his prime ends and that’s it. I walk away feeling confident that Kobe was not a great floor raiser. He was a complementary piece. Unlike a lot of complementary pieces like KG or Durant, you also need to be extra careful about how he’s deployed so he’s not a bad fit (and doesn’t feud with his team mates).

Kobe isn’t going to be in my top 20. He’s just not enough of an impact player, and that means longevity can only get him so far. Then there’s the question of how much longevity he even has. His fans only give him 10 prime years (00-10 is usually the proposed time frame, with 05 often excluded due to him supposedly being too injured). He adds some value in the other years, but he honestly doesn’t have that much longevity given the superior players he’s being compared to. Some guys like the Malones actually have more longevity than him, and KD is pretty similar.

rk2023 · Post #13 » by **rk2023** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:27 pm

Vote: Kobe Bryant
Alternate: Jerry West
1st Nomination: Karl Malone
2nd Nomination: Chris Paul

I've gone through analysis of Kobe / West before and they have been on my radar, I think Oscar has a great argument being compared to West - but I see their longevity as closer than a fair share of people I've spoken with on the subject and trust West as the better player peak for peak and in a PS setting. Even with curving for era, Kobe beats both of them in a longevity sense - where I see his and Oscar's peaks as close but slightly prefer West over both. Historically on the PC Board (including in this current project), there's been various great posts about Oscar - which I'll share if/when I come across them. As for my nominations, I brushed on Malone somewhere in this threads' page 11. Paul in the context of this project as it currently stands is kind of a moot point, so I digress. I personally don't find it too eyebrow raising to regard him around here all-time in general - certainly not when considering Malone and Robinson have been mentioned frequently.

Kobe Vote from Past Threads:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2312334&p=107859219#p107859219

West Nomination from a Prior Round:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2311872&start=140#p107846583

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #14 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:32 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
ZeppelinPage wrote:Vote: Jerry West
Nomination: Moses Malone

.

Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

If I may answer -- ZeppelinPage just wrote half a page on West's defensive impact. Oscar led offenses were outstanding in Cincinnati but the defenses were generally not impressive and Oscar himself, while a great physical specimen who was stronger than almost all the guards he faced, didn't seem to be a difference maker on that end.

It also could be because West stepped it up in the playoffs, particularly in the finals, while Oscar didn't have nearly as many playoff opportunities and so couldn't match West in that regard.

To add to that last point...

I think the chasm in team success between West's Lakers and Oscar's Royals in that 1961-1970 time period is too great to ignore. Obviously neither won a ring in that time period, but West went to eight finals in that period and came within one game of a title five times(West really has no competition for the title of "most tragic player in NBA history", I think maybe only Walton could compete), and he was the man on most of those teams. It's not just the Finals appearances though. It's that Oscar's Royals won a grand total of two playoff series in that ten-year period, and had four DNQs. Oscar never sniffed the Finals until he played with Kareem.

I get that Oscar didn't have the teammates West did, I do, but this just seems like a gargantuan gap that is very difficult to look past.

HeartBreakKid · Post #15 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:39 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

If I may answer -- ZeppelinPage just wrote half a page on West's defensive impact. Oscar led offenses were outstanding in Cincinnati but the defenses were generally not impressive and Oscar himself, while a great physical specimen who was stronger than almost all the guards he faced, didn't seem to be a difference maker on that end.

It also could be because West stepped it up in the playoffs, particularly in the finals, while Oscar didn't have nearly as many playoff opportunities and so couldn't match West in that regard.

To add to that last point...

I think the chasm in team success between West's Lakers and Oscar's Royals in that 1961-1970 time period is too great to ignore. Obviously neither won a ring in that time period, but West went to eight finals in that period and came within one game of a title five times(West really has no competition for the title of "most tragic player in NBA history", I think maybe only Walton could compete), and he was the man on most of those teams. It's not just the Finals appearances though. It's that Oscar's Royals won a grand total of two playoff series in that ten-year period, and had four DNQs. Oscar never sniffed the Finals until he played with Kareem.

I get that Oscar didn't have the teammates West did, I do, but this just seems like a gargantuan gap that is very difficult to look past.

I don't think that makes that much of a difference.

The Royals were in the same conference as the Celtics. The Lakers were incapable of beating the Celtics as well, this was proven many times. The highest amount of eliminations the Royals suffered were from the Celtics. The 2nd most were from the Sixers who were just as stacked as the Celtics.

There were less playoff series back then in general. So saying the Royals only won___ amount of playoff series is misleading if one is using modern standards for winning. There was not an extra round for them to rack up wins against lesser teams like there is today.

I don't really get the mind set of "the winning is too big to ignore". What you are actually implying there is saying that Jerry West is a great player and Oscar Robertson is not. Because if the gap between the Lakers and Royals success was big, then why would the first thing that separates them be their best players and not their 2nd best, third, best, 4th best, coaching or competition?

It would seem more likely that analyzing the reason why the Royals were not as successful as the Lakers would not be because they had Oscar Robertson. It would seem to me that there are other much larger factors that go into the Lakers relative success then simply West>Robertson - even if that were true, the Royals would not be any better unless you're under the impression they would defeat the Sixers and Celtics with West instead of Oscar.

Colbinii · Post #16 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:45 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

If I may answer -- ZeppelinPage just wrote half a page on West's defensive impact. Oscar led offenses were outstanding in Cincinnati but the defenses were generally not impressive and Oscar himself, while a great physical specimen who was stronger than almost all the guards he faced, didn't seem to be a difference maker on that end.

It also could be because West stepped it up in the playoffs, particularly in the finals, while Oscar didn't have nearly as many playoff opportunities and so couldn't match West in that regard.

To add to that last point...

I think the chasm in team success between West's Lakers and Oscar's Royals in that 1961-1970 time period is too great to ignore. Obviously neither won a ring in that time period, but West went to eight finals in that period and came within one game of a title five times(West really has no competition for the title of "most tragic player in NBA history", I think maybe only Walton could compete), and he was the man on most of those teams. It's not just the Finals appearances though. It's that Oscar's Royals won a grand total of two playoff series in that ten-year period, and had four DNQs. Oscar never sniffed the Finals until he played with Kareem.

I get that Oscar didn't have the teammates West did, I do, but this just seems like a gargantuan gap that is very difficult to look past.

All you are saying is the Lakers had a better team than the Royals and that the Western Conference was easier.

rk2023 · Post #17 » by **rk2023** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:46 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why do you feel Jerry West was better than Oscar?

If I may answer -- ZeppelinPage just wrote half a page on West's defensive impact. Oscar led offenses were outstanding in Cincinnati but the defenses were generally not impressive and Oscar himself, while a great physical specimen who was stronger than almost all the guards he faced, didn't seem to be a difference maker on that end.

It also could be because West stepped it up in the playoffs, particularly in the finals, while Oscar didn't have nearly as many playoff opportunities and so couldn't match West in that regard.

To add to that last point...

I think the chasm in team success between West's Lakers and Oscar's Royals in that 1961-1970 time period is too great to ignore. Obviously neither won a ring in that time period, but West went to eight finals in that period and came within one game of a title five times(West really has no competition for the title of "most tragic player in NBA history", I think maybe only Walton could compete), and he was the man on most of those teams. It's not just the Finals appearances though. It's that Oscar's Royals won a grand total of two playoff series in that ten-year period, and had four DNQs. Oscar never sniffed the Finals until he played with Kareem.

I get that Oscar didn't have the teammates West did, I do, but this just seems like a gargantuan gap that is very difficult to look past.

As one whom rates West over Oscar and prefers him as a playoff performer (decent portion of my premise), it seems that the gap in finals appearances and minutes could be explained by the nuance that Oscar's Royals shared a conference with Bill/Wilt, whereas the Lakers usually would be able to square off with Boston in the finals while playing slightly worse comp on the way there. It's a point I personally don't hold against either, but I felt the need to mention it as a worthwhile consideration in comparing the two historical counter-parts. I will say though, if Oscar and co. could replicate the YoY trend of West's Lakers being able to push Boston to the brink (while yielding some impressive offensive results against this Projects' #4's squads) is something I am not too confident in giving a 'yes' towards. That said, his 1963 effort against Boston is vastly under-appreciated in the grand scheme of things.

HeartBreakKid · Post #18 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:51 pm

I also think pointing out that Oscar did not win anything until he teamed up with Kareem is worded in a way that seems like a low blow.

Like the Lakers, the Bucks were more stacked and in a different conference than the Royals. The Bucks without Kareem were probably a better team than many of the Royals teams. Generally speaking, the West was still easier than the East in the 70s (at least in terms of top heaviness, though I could be wrong on that).

Anyway, Jerry West only ring came when Wilt Chamberlain joined him. And quite frankly, West had a much better team than what Robertson had for nearly his entire career. Not that I agree with populist arguments but during their time West was not even seen as the best player on the Lakers by many, if not the majority, so I don't think it's fair to make it seem like Oscar Robertson was just Kareem's Pippen.

You could just as easily libel Jerry West and make him look like a gigantic loser.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #19 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:54 pm

You all make valid points, and what you say is true. But I still get hung up on those four DNQs. I know three of them came later when he was a bit older and the wheels were coming off the team as a whole, but still. In 68-70, the Frazier/Reed Knicks and (in the last year) Kareem's Bucks appeared in the East in addition to Boston and Philly to make it tougher, but there were two years where Oscar and the Royals missed the playoffs while Dave Bing's Pistons and the Unseld/Monroe Bullets made it instead.

I don't know, maybe none of this is far, but when comparing two players who I feel are close in terms of impact, I can't help but lean on these things as tie-breakers.

But I should probably think deeper about it.

eminence · Post #20 » by **eminence** » Mon Aug 7, 2023 6:56 pm

ZeppelinPage wrote:Total Career Minutes Among Players Inducted or Nominated:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 66,297
LeBron James: 65,747
Kobe Bryant: 57,278
Tim Duncan: 56,738
Kevin Garnett: 55,701
Wilt Chamberlain: 55,418
Shaquille O'Neal: 50,016
Hakeem Olajuwon: 49,971
Michael Jordan: 48,485
Bill Russell: 48,223
Jerry West: 42,892
Larry Bird: 41,329
Magic Johnson: 40,783
Stephen Curry: 35,794
George Mikan: 9,850

As much as West was injured during the regular season, he was routinely making the Finals and those minutes add up. So, considering the fact that Magic's and Steph's careers were enough to place them in the top 11, did West play enough to warrant voting him in here? While durability is something often harped on with West, I believe he still played enough minutes (especially in the playoffs) to keep that from being a problem.

I think there deserves to be at least a mention that Mikan is that low in part due to shorter seasons in his day (around 70 games/season), but mostly because they didn't track minutes during his first 5 seasons. He would still be last in career minutes, but by a much lesser margin.