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Feels like the Harden-Paul pairing was hit by terrible timing and luck. If they played together for one more year, what happens?

Always felt they would’ve won if healthy in 20.

Probably LA’s worst matchup on both ends simultaneously. A guy who can seal off the lane and bang on the elite level in Capela while being able to guard AD without help.


LA had no answer for 20 Harden and would absolutely not get away with giving CP3 the 4 on 3’s Russ got.

No way, come on. The Lakers beat the Rockets 4-1 winning every game by at least 8 points. What about that series makes you think it would have been any better of an opportunity than the other 10 times Harden didn’t get it done against a championship level team? The team clearly peaked in 2018 anyway. That was when they should have even able to win the title. A 2020 team with CP3 wouldn’t have been any better than the 2019 version.

If they “played together for one more year” following 2019, what I actually think would have unfolded is that Harden pouts/sulks starting at some point in the year until Paul gets traded.

iggymcfrack wrote:No way, come on. The Lakers beat the Rockets 4-1 winning every game by at least 8 points. What about that series makes you think it would have been any better of an opportunity than the other 10 times Harden didn’t get it done against a championship level team? The team clearly peaked in 2018 anyway. That was when they should have even able to win the title. A 2020 team with CP3 wouldn’t have been any better than the 2019 version.

Not really thought about it but presumably one entertains the question they think the team is better seedings are different, even if they play dynamics may be different, the games are different with a different player. Thus even if one normally does so this might be less of a case where you look at "this happened in the actual series" as the baseline. And that's always a small sample anyhow.

Not sure that the "should have [in '18]' adds anything to whether they do in '20.
And first glance the Reference numbers(box and on-off] for Paul look better in '20 than '19 team context may be a factor (especially for impact-y stuff). That could be one way to be better than '19.

Not to take a stand on the question. And in all honesty it's always a balance of probabilities rather than a binary yes/no anyhow.

CP3 was better than Westbrook in 2020 but Russ actually played quite well in Games 1, 3 and 4. Russ played bad in Game 5 but the entire team collapsed in that game. Game 2 was the ball Russ dropped. Rockets led by 2 going into the 4th, Russ was awful.

If Houston had CP3 and he helped them jump out to 2-0 instead of splitting by playing well in the 4th quarter of Game 2, Houston would have had a real chance. But even if Houston managed to upset LA, they would have to beat Denver and then Miami. At best they would have a 25% chance. I'll give them a 8% chance to beat LA with CP3. So with CP3 the Rockets would have a 2% chance to win the title.

Owly wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:No way, come on. The Lakers beat the Rockets 4-1 winning every game by at least 8 points. What about that series makes you think it would have been any better of an opportunity than the other 10 times Harden didn’t get it done against a championship level team? The team clearly peaked in 2018 anyway. That was when they should have even able to win the title. A 2020 team with CP3 wouldn’t have been any better than the 2019 version.

Not really thought about it but presumably one entertains the question they think the team is better seedings are different, even if they play dynamics may be different, the games are different with a different player. Thus even if one normally does so this might be less of a case where you look at "this happened in the actual series" as the baseline. And that's always a small sample anyhow.

Not sure that the "should have [in '18]' adds anything to whether they do in '20.
And first glance the Reference numbers(box and on-off] for Paul look better in '20 than '19 team context may be a factor (especially for impact-y stuff). That could be one way to be better than '19.

Not to take a stand on the question. And in all honesty it's always a balance of probabilities rather than a binary yes/no anyhow.

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Owly wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:No way, come on. The Lakers beat the Rockets 4-1 winning every game by at least 8 points. What about that series makes you think it would have been any better of an opportunity than the other 10 times Harden didn’t get it done against a championship level team? The team clearly peaked in 2018 anyway. That was when they should have even able to win the title. A 2020 team with CP3 wouldn’t have been any better than the 2019 version.

Not really thought about it but presumably one entertains the question they think the team is better seedings are different, even if they play dynamics may be different, the games are different with a different player. Thus even if one normally does so this might be less of a case where you look at "this happened in the actual series" as the baseline. And that's always a small sample anyhow.

Not sure that the "should have [in '18]' adds anything to whether they do in '20.
And first glance the Reference numbers(box and on-off] for Paul look better in '20 than '19 team context may be a factor (especially for impact-y stuff). That could be one way to be better than '19.

Not to take a stand on the question. And in all honesty it's always a balance of probabilities rather than a binary yes/no anyhow.

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.Three steps and a knee, all so clearly out it looked like he was trying to avoid the court, yet, yay, aren’t the Dubs clutch?

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Owly wrote:Not really thought about it but presumably one entertains the question they think the team is better seedings are different, even if they play dynamics may be different, the games are different with a different player. Thus even if one normally does so this might be less of a case where you look at "this happened in the actual series" as the baseline. And that's always a small sample anyhow.

Not sure that the "should have [in '18]' adds anything to whether they do in '20.
And first glance the Reference numbers(box and on-off] for Paul look better in '20 than '19 team context may be a factor (especially for impact-y stuff). That could be one way to be better than '19.

Not to take a stand on the question. And in all honesty it's always a balance of probabilities rather than a binary yes/no anyhow.

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

Didn’t watch the clip, huh? Don’t blame you, I still wake up screaming.

But how’s that not decisive? You literally had studio guys saying the refs must be Warriors fans because no other explanation makes any sense. You can see two refs looking right at his feet, he wasn’t on the line he was way over it on every step, no one is looking anywhere else and it’s a potential 4/5 point swing in what would have been the clinching game’s OT with like 20 seconds left. Calls that bad players kinda get the message.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

Again, no strong opinion on how calls went but the margin isn't 27 missed threes in a row. The margins are whatever the point margin was, at a glance the highest in either direction is 6 suggesting all games are flippable with a different whistle. Now whether perfect reffing takes them in a specific direction, how much those calls change in game dynamics ... I don't know.

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:
They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

Didn’t watch the clip, huh? Don’t blame you, I still wake up screaming.

But how’s that not decisive? You literally had studio guys saying the refs must be Warriors fans because no other explanation makes any sense. You can see two refs looking right at his feet, he wasn’t on the line he was way over it on every step, no one is looking anywhere else and it’s a potential 4/5 point swing in what would have been the clinching game’s OT with like 20 seconds left. Calls that bad players kinda get the message.

Bro, that's a January regular season game that the Rockets won.

eminence wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:
I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

Didn’t watch the clip, huh? Don’t blame you, I still wake up screaming.

But how’s that not decisive? You literally had studio guys saying the refs must be Warriors fans because no other explanation makes any sense. You can see two refs looking right at his feet, he wasn’t on the line he was way over it on every step, no one is looking anywhere else and it’s a potential 4/5 point swing in what would have been the clinching game’s OT with like 20 seconds left. Calls that bad players kinda get the message.

Bro, that's a January regular season game that the Rockets won.

Was it?



In my defence I’m pretty stoned atm, just about to crash for the first me in 3 days and 2nd in 5, and one of those was an 2 1/2 hour kip. and as already mentioned traumatized from the experience. But, not kidding, this was the way it went in every Ws/Rox game. Here, look at this:

And, reminder, the post series round table was about 2 things, the 27 threes and people were giving their opinions on the most one sided officiating series in…I think? playoff but migh have been NBA history. And they were talking about that for a reason. Here, watch:



Game after game the Rockets took commanding leads and then the calls would drag GS back in. And for full disclosure, the NBA is about as open as it’s possible to be about having strong preferences re: teams they want to win. Going back to Stern, it began with flagship teams and flagship players, and was amongst the first to talk about the value of name recognition. He said that in a perfect world the Lakers would play the Knicks, Celtics or…Sixers, I think? Maybe Bulls…but I think this was early in MJ’s career where he kept getting swept out of the playoffs…in every finals. Like he said that to reporters. Over time he cared somewhat less about where the dynasties were located so long as they were entertaining and filled with recognizable names. Because, again as he said, his job was not to get the hardcore fans to watch, they do that already, his job was to draw in casual fans and turn them into hardcore fans, rinse, repeat. And you do that…and sell merch…with name recognition.

Please watch the vid. I’ll be passed out in a moment, but when I wake up I want riots in the streets, or at least rough drafts of strongly worded emails. Night.

Harry Palmer wrote:

eminence wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:
Didn’t watch the clip, huh? Don’t blame you, I still wake up screaming.

But how’s that not decisive? You literally had studio guys saying the refs must be Warriors fans because no other explanation makes any sense. You can see two refs looking right at his feet, he wasn’t on the line he was way over it on every step, no one is looking anywhere else and it’s a potential 4/5 point swing in what would have been the clinching game’s OT with like 20 seconds left. Calls that bad players kinda get the message.

Bro, that's a January regular season game that the Rockets won.

Was it?



In my defence I’m pretty stoned atm, just about to crash for the first me in 3 days and 2nd in 5, and one of those was an 2 1/2 hour kip. and as already mentioned traumatized from the experience. But, not kidding, this was the way it went in every Ws/Rox game. Here, look at this:

And, reminder, the post series round table was about 2 things, the 27 threes and people were giving their opinions on the most one sided officiating series in…I think? playoff but migh have been NBA history. And they were talking about that for a reason. Here, watch:

Watch on YouTube

Game after game the Rockets took commanding leads and then the calls would drag GS back in. And for full disclosure, the NBA is about as open as it’s possible to be about having strong preferences re: teams they want to win. Going back to Stern, it began with flagship teams and flagship players, and was amongst the first to talk about the value of name recognition. He said that in a perfect world the Lakers would play the Knicks, Celtics or…Sixers, I think? Maybe Bulls…but I think this was early in MJ’s career where he kept getting swept out of the playoffs…in every finals. Like he said that to reporters. Over time he cared somewhat less about where the dynasties were located so long as they were entertaining and filled with recognizable names. Because, again as he said, his job was not to get the hardcore fans to watch, they do that already, his job was to draw in casual fans and turn them into hardcore fans, rinse, repeat. And you do that…and sell merch…with name recognition.

Please watch the vid. I’ll be passed out in a moment, but when I wake up I want riots in the streets, or at least rough drafts of strongly worded emails. Night.

I read this down to up and was thinking ur weird but I saw ur stoned so you are now a top 3 poster on the forum even if I didn’t read anything aside from the last and first block

iggymcfrack wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

The point is they were an old team who took such a huge decline from 2018 to 2019 that they went from almost beating the best team of all-time to not even being able to do anything once Durant got hurt. The arrow wasn't pointing up. At absolute best, they were the same team they were the year before and that team collapsed when everything opened up for them. Considering that the Lakers were really good and beat them by just as much as you'd expect them to, there's no reason in the world to think Chris Paul would have advanced them. I'm the biggest Chris Paul dude in the world. I have him over Magic. I said the Westbrook trade was a top 3 worst trade all-time the moment happened and I loved seeing him go off with OKC, but there's no questioning that they're still massive underdogs to the Lakers even if he stays. Honestly, I'd take those Nuggets over them too.

They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

i literally was going to joke that you must have lost a lot of money on the 2018 rockets because your takes on that team are exactly like someone who lost money on something where they're overly bitter and not just an analysis of what happened. apparently, it's actually true. also, a "few" whistles would definitely help when at least 3 of the myriad bad calls were on harden 3's in a 9 point game 7.

f4p wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:
They would have done more than ‘almost’ win if any 1 of several terrible calls…most vividly KD’s taking the dog for a walk outside in OT that inexplicably didn’t get called despite two refs having eyes right on it. Just unbelievable. Stern’s flagships saved the league but **** a lot of non-flagships along the way. (Yes I know he was gone by then, it’s still his blueprint.)

https://youtu.be/rAGZPmQGLb8

Doesn’t get much more blatant, aside from maybe Bibby getting called for Kobe punching him in the face.

I had way more money than I could afford on Houston that series and the Rockets did have some bad calls against them, but they weren't decisive at all. They got it done when they needed to the first 5 games and then when CP3 was out, they just fell apart like a house of cards. If the games were officiated perfectly by supercomputers it wouldn't have been enough to change things. I do remember Game 6 getting a little dirty at points, but a few whistles aren't gonna make up for a team missing 27 threes in a row.

i literally was going to joke that you must have lost a lot of money on the 2018 rockets because your takes on that team are exactly like someone who lost money on something where they're overly bitter and not just an analysis of what happened. apparently, it's actually true. also, a "few" whistles would definitely help when at least 3 of the myriad bad calls were on harden 3's in a 9 point game 7.

I’m not bitter at all. I’ve had plenty of bigger sports betting swings since then. But the team definitely collapsed without a clutch bucket getter like CP3. Harden let the offense completely go to ****.

No team with James Harden as their best player was ever, at any point in the past 40 years, going to win an NBA title.

The Rockets had their chance in 2019 when Durant went down. What happened? Harden got outplayed by Steph in the last two minutes of game 6, in Houston, and the Rockets lost the series. Instead of trading Paul for Westbrook, the Rockets should have called Phoenix and offered Harden for Booker straight up and threw in a free night at the Golden Nugget for Sarver's cheap ass.

.

I think their best shot was 2018, by the time you get to 2020 the supporting cast had fallen off a lot and Harden probably had a little bit as well. Their time had passed.

Harry Palmer wrote:

eminence wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:
Didn’t watch the clip, huh? Don’t blame you, I still wake up screaming.

But how’s that not decisive? You literally had studio guys saying the refs must be Warriors fans because no other explanation makes any sense. You can see two refs looking right at his feet, he wasn’t on the line he was way over it on every step, no one is looking anywhere else and it’s a potential 4/5 point swing in what would have been the clinching game’s OT with like 20 seconds left. Calls that bad players kinda get the message.

Bro, that's a January regular season game that the Rockets won.

Was it?



In my defence I’m pretty stoned atm, just about to crash for the first me in 3 days and 2nd in 5, and one of those was an 2 1/2 hour kip. and as already mentioned traumatized from the experience. But, not kidding, this was the way it went in every Ws/Rox game. Here, look at this:

And, reminder, the post series round table was about 2 things, the 27 threes and people were giving their opinions on the most one sided officiating series in…I think? playoff but migh have been NBA history. And they were talking about that for a reason. Here, watch:

Watch on YouTube

Game after game the Rockets took commanding leads and then the calls would drag GS back in. And for full disclosure, the NBA is about as open as it’s possible to be about having strong preferences re: teams they want to win. Going back to Stern, it began with flagship teams and flagship players, and was amongst the first to talk about the value of name recognition. He said that in a perfect world the Lakers would play the Knicks, Celtics or…Sixers, I think? Maybe Bulls…but I think this was early in MJ’s career where he kept getting swept out of the playoffs…in every finals. Like he said that to reporters. Over time he cared somewhat less about where the dynasties were located so long as they were entertaining and filled with recognizable names. Because, again as he said, his job was not to get the hardcore fans to watch, they do that already, his job was to draw in casual fans and turn them into hardcore fans, rinse, repeat. And you do that…and sell merch…with name recognition.

Please watch the vid. I’ll be passed out in a moment, but when I wake up I want riots in the streets, or at least rough drafts of strongly worded emails. Night.

that series was a travesty and it puts the 2002 kings/lakers series to shame

scott foster was the lead ref in both game 1 and game 7 for that western conference finals series which ended up both being rockets HOME losses. I found this article a couple of years ago and based on these numbers, it should have been illegal for scott foster to be anywhere near that series.

?s=20
_________________________________________________________________________________________

also people mention game 7 of that 2018 wcf, but nobody ever mentions game 6 which in my eyes was just as corrupt as game 7.

here is the video of the game 6 officiating.. the nba forever altered the career arcs of harden/dantoni/cp3 and daryl morey. Who knows if the rockets get a fair whistle that series and go on to play the cavs, tilman may have overspent and brought back ariza and luc richard. Instead we lost and tilman cheaped out and signed carmelo anthony and james ennis

;ab_channel=ChrisH