RealGM

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2023 6:37 am**

fp4 made something

1 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561
2 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315
3 George Mikan 0.3246
4 Lebron James 0.2747
5 Bill Russell 0.2548
6 Walt Frazier 0.2318
7 Jerry West 0.2142
8 Michael Jordan 0.2081
9 Tim Duncan 0.166
10 Magic Johnson 0.0968
11 Scottie Pippen 0.0963
12 Oscar Robertson 0.0865
13 Kobe Bryant 0.0856
14 Charles Barkley 0.0779
15 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554
16 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534
17 Jayson Tatum 0.0247
18 Nikola Jokic 0.0205
19 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179
20 Moses Malone 0.0093
21 Dwyane Wade -0.0021
22 Chris Paul -0.0156
23 Julius Erving -0.0231
24 Jimmy Butler -0.0341
25 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851
26 Kevin Garnett -0.1115
27 Larry Bird -0.1327
28 Kevin Durant -0.1435
29 Patrick Ewing -0.1446
30 David Robinson -0.1552
31 Steve Nash -0.1582
32 Stephen Curry -0.1613
33 Bob Pettit -0.1624
34 John Stockton -0.182
35 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975
36 James Harden -0.1982
37 Karl Malone -0.2959
38 Joel Embiid -0.533

my top players all at the top 8-)

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2023 1:13 pm**

Would be interested in seeing this process run for Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton (as another direct point of comparison with Isiah), Clyde Drexler, and Reggie Miller.

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:56 pm**

ShaqAttac wrote:fp4 made something
1 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561
2 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315
3 George Mikan 0.3246
4 Lebron James 0.2747
5 Bill Russell 0.2548
6 Walt Frazier 0.2318
7 Jerry West 0.2142
8 Michael Jordan 0.2081
9 Tim Duncan 0.166
10 Magic Johnson 0.0968
11 Scottie Pippen 0.0963
12 Oscar Robertson 0.0865
13 Kobe Bryant 0.0856
14 Charles Barkley 0.0779
15 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554
16 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534
17 Jayson Tatum 0.0247
18 Nikola Jokic 0.0205
19 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179
20 Moses Malone 0.0093
21 Dwyane Wade -0.0021
22 Chris Paul -0.0156
23 Julius Erving -0.0231
24 Jimmy Butler -0.0341
25 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851
26 Kevin Garnett -0.1115
27 Larry Bird -0.1327
28 Kevin Durant -0.1435
29 Patrick Ewing -0.1446
30 David Robinson -0.1552
31 Steve Nash -0.1582
32 Stephen Curry -0.1613
33 Bob Pettit -0.1624
34 John Stockton -0.182
35 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975
36 James Harden -0.1982
37 Karl Malone -0.2959
38 Joel Embiid -0.533

my top players all at the top

Didn’t know you were a Jordan or Frazier guy

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:22 pm**

Would love to see DeRozan's score :lol:

Posted: **Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:40 pm**

AEnigma wrote:Would be interested in seeing this process run for Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton (as another direct point of comparison with Isiah), Clyde Drexler, and Reggie Miller.

isiah and reggie were up there almost with hakeem on a really old and slightly different spreadsheet i made. i bet they'll be way up there again. i'll try to get around to it.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:17 am**

I'd like to see where Cliff Hagan, Tommy Heinsohn, and Frank Ramsey fit in . . . and Bob Cousy on the other end.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 2:44 am**

What do these numbers mean?

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:08 am**

So Isiah pops in at 2nd place, Reggie at 6th, Clyde poor but not horrible, and Payton pretty bad. Payton got a bit hit from the 2004 season, which is just at the age cutoff, but he also kind of got saved by the 1995 playoffs only being 5 games and, thus it only counting for half its value, despite being a historic upset.

edit: frank ramsey actually takes over the top spot and hagan is now 3rd. heinsohn pretty good. cousy basically neutral.

Isiah = 0.3422
Reggie = 0.2665
Clyde = -0.0793
Payton = -0.1708

Code: Select all

Rk    Player Name              Resiliency
1     Frank Ramsey             0.4692    
2     Kawhi Leonard            0.4561    
3     Cliff Hagan              0.4376    
4     Isiah Thomas             0.3422    
5     Hakeem Olajuwon          0.3315    
6     George Mikan             0.3246    
7     Lebron James             0.2747    
8     Reggie Miller            0.2665    
9     Bill Russell             0.2548    
10    Walt Frazier             0.2318    
11    Jerry West               0.2142    
12    Michael Jordan           0.2081    
13    Tim Duncan               0.166     
14    Tom Heinsohn             0.1508    
15    Magic Johnson            0.0968    
16    Scottie Pippen           0.0963    
17    Oscar Robertson          0.0865    
18    Kobe Bryant              0.0856    
19    Charles Barkley          0.0779    
20    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar      0.0554    
21    Dirk Nowitzki            0.0534    
22    Jayson Tatum             0.0247    
23    Nikola Jokic             0.0205    
24    Shaquille O'neal         0.0179    
25    Moses Malone             0.0093    
26    Dwyane Wade              -0.0021   
27    Chris Paul               -0.0156   
28    Julius Erving            -0.0231   
29    Bob Cousy                -0.0336   
30    Jimmy Butler             -0.0341   
31    Clyde Drexler            -0.0793   
32    Wilt Chamberlain         -0.0851   
33    Kevin Garnett            -0.1115   
34    Larry Bird               -0.1327   
35    Kevin Durant             -0.1435   
36    Patrick Ewing            -0.1446   
37    David Robinson           -0.1552   
38    Steve Nash               -0.1582   
39    Stephen Curry            -0.1613   
40    Bob Pettit               -0.1624   
41    Gary Payton              -0.1708   
42    John Stockton            -0.182    
43    Giannis Antetokounmpo    -0.1975   
44    James Harden             -0.1982   
45    Karl Malone              -0.2959   
46    Joel Embiid              -0.533

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:24 am**

SpreeS wrote:What do these numbers mean?

mostly copied from a different thread:

i looked at the last project's Top 33 (just stopped at pippen due to time and less interest in the players below him) plus newer guys like jokic, giannis, embiid, and kawhi and then put in tatum and butler. i would've put in doncic but i only did ages 22-35 and doncic only had one season (though he would have led the list below).

all the data is from ages 22 to 35 and it looks at the BBRef stats PER, WS48, BPM, and TS% and compares each year to the regular season. the resilience at the end is just an average of the normalized increase/decrease for each value. +1 is a top 95% value and -1 is a bottom 6.5% value (couldn't use 5% because the lower values were so low that they were making the average season as slightly "resilient"). for playoff runs shorter than 10 games, the final value was multiplied by "Games/10" so a 5 game, 1 round playoffs would get weighed at 50% (i.e. a score of +0.8 would get turned into 0.8 * 5 /10 = 0.4). the 2nd table is all 416 playoff runs for these guys. the 1st table is their career average (each playoff run weighed equally to essentially average your resiliency from year to year).

note that the 6.5% and 95% values remained fixed when i added isiah/reggie/clyde/payton so their numbers are being compared to the original guys because i don't want the numbers to update every time i add someone.

this is the OG list of all of the individual playoff runs

Code: Select all

Rank   Player Name             Season    Age   PER     TS%     WS/48    BPM     Resilience
1      George Mikan            1953-54   29    4.6     7.7     0.133            1.3491    
2      Tim Duncan              2005-06   29    7.3     10.2    0.065    3.6     1.2829    
3      Jerry West              1960-61   22    5.3     8.5     0.09             1.2777    
4      Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1969-70   22    6.9     5.6     0.099            1.2741    
5      Hakeem Olajuwon         1996-97   34    4.9     7       0.075    5.7     1.2296    
6      Hakeem Olajuwon         1986-87   24    4.7     10.5    0.062    4       1.1957    
7      Dirk Nowitzki           2008-09   30    5.3     7.1     0.067    3.5     1.0901    
8      Jimmy Butler            2021-22   32    6.3     1.2     0.063    5.5     1.0544    
9      Lebron James            2008-09   24    5.7     2.7     0.081    4.3     1.0482    
10     Kawhi Leonard           2016-17   25    3.9     6.2     0.05     4.8     1.0369    
11     Lebron James            2019-20   35    4.7     7       0.065    2.3     0.9788    
12     Hakeem Olajuwon         1987-88   25    15.6    8.6     0.203    10.1    0.9464    
13     Kawhi Leonard           2020-21   29    4.6     5.7     0.039    3.4     0.9338    
14     Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1976-77   29    4.6     3.8     0.049    2.8     0.8582    
15     Scottie Pippen          1989-90   24    2.4     4.1     0.062    3.6     0.8555    
16     Julius Erving           1975-76   25    3.3     4.1     0.059    3       0.8493    
17     Bill Russell            1964-65   30    1.4     6.8     0.052            0.8415    
18     Bill Russell            1965-66   31    2.9     6.6     0.026            0.8314    
19     Dirk Nowitzki           2009-10   31    5.4     6.5     0.097    6.5     0.8056    
20     George Mikan            1948-49   24            4.3                      0.8001    
21     Charles Barkley         1993-94   30    5       1.2     0.023    3.6     0.7728    
22     Lebron James            2017-18   33    3.6     -0.2    0.048    4       0.7544    
23     Michael Jordan          1994-95   31    2.7     6.4     -0.017   3.8     0.7539    
24     Lebron James            2016-17   32    3.1     3       0.054    2.2     0.7401    
25     Stephen Curry           2016-17   28    2.5     3.5     0.043    2.8     0.7399    
26     Bill Russell            1961-62   27    3.2     3       0.04             0.7373    
27     Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1973-74   26    3.9     1.9     0.047    2.4     0.7334    
28     Larry Bird              1983-84   27    2.1     5.5     0.021    2.7     0.7257    
29     Kobe Bryant             2009-10   31    2.8     2.2     0.03     2.9     0.6826    
30     Dwyane Wade             2015-16   34    2       1.5     0.043    3       0.6639    
31     Bill Russell            1962-63   28    2.3     4.4     0.012            0.65      
32     Nikola Jokic            2018-19   23    3.3     0.7     0.037    2.5     0.6474    
33     Julius Erving           1976-77   26    2       2.4     0.027    2.9     0.6462    
34     Oscar Robertson         1972-73   34    3.8     6.1     0.088            0.6455    
35     Larry Bird              1980-81   24    1.9     0.4     0.038    3.4     0.6353    
36     Kobe Bryant             2008-09   30    2.4     0.3     0.032    3.2     0.6259    
37     Tim Duncan              1998-99   22    1.9     3.2     0.03     2.1     0.6253    
38     Julius Erving           1978-79   28    2       3       0.038    2.8     0.6194    
39     Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1983-84   36    2.7     -1.6    0.043    3.3     0.6106    
40     Kawhi Leonard           2018-19   27    2.1     1.3     0.025    2.9     0.6088    
41     Chris Paul              2010-11   25    5.2     9.2     0.01     3.4     0.6012    
42     Michael Jordan          1997-98   34    2.9     1.2     0.027    2.1     0.5951    
43     Walt Frazier            1973-74   28    2.6     2.9     0.021    1.6     0.5912    
44     Bill Russell            1960-61   26    3.9     0.3     0.02             0.5896    
45     Jerry West              1968-69   30    2.9     -1.5    0.058            0.5818    
46     James Harden            2020-21   31    -0.6    5.5     0.055    1.9     0.5791    
47     Tim Duncan              2002-03   26    1.5     1.3     0.031    2.6     0.5787    
48     Kevin Durant            2018-19   30    2.6     3       0.002    2.1     0.5772    
49     Stephen Curry           2021-22   33    3       0.5     0.03     1.9     0.5712    
50     Bill Russell            1959-60   25    1.9     0.8     0.038            0.5561    
51     Jerry West              1967-68   29    1.9     0.6     0.037            0.5438    
52     Hakeem Olajuwon         1985-86   23    1.4     0.6     0.045    1.9     0.5427    
53     Lebron James            2015-16   31    2.5     -0.3    0.032    2       0.534     
54     Kobe Bryant             2000-01   22    0.5     0.3     0.064    1.7     0.5294    
55     Magic Johnson           1985-86   26    1.6     -1.1    0.041    2.6     0.529     
56     Dirk Nowitzki           2003-04   25    5       0       0.097    5.7     0.5288    
57     Tim Duncan              2001-02   25    4.8     -2.6    -0.01    3.8     0.5083    
58     Scottie Pippen          1988-89   23    -0.5    2       0.024    2.7     0.502     
59     Bob Pettit              1962-63   30    1.1     1.8     0.022            0.4983    
60     Charles Barkley         1985-86   22    1.4     1.2     0.013    2.1     0.4927    
61     Kobe Bryant             2011-12   33    2.5     -0.2    0.011    2.1     0.4894    
62     Jerry West              1962-63   24    1.2     2.5     0.008            0.487     
63     Moses Malone            1982-83   27    0.6     0.9     0.012    2.7     0.4829    
64     Luka Doncic             2021-22   22    3.5     0.6     0.005    1.1     0.4812    
65     Walt Frazier            1974-75   29    7.4     13.5    0.09     5.3     0.471     
66     Lebron James            2013-14   29    1.7     1.9     0.005    1.5     0.4704    
67     Jimmy Butler            2018-19   29    0.9     -0.7    0.022    2.5     0.456     
68     Walt Frazier            1970-71   25    0.7     1.6     0.019            0.4555    
69     Shaquille O'neal        1995-96   23    1       0.5     -0.015   3.1     0.4429    
70     Shaquille O'neal        1997-98   25    2.2     1.7     -0.024   2       0.4427    
71     Hakeem Olajuwon         1993-94   31    2.4     0.3     -0.002   1.7     0.4426    
72     Chris Paul              2015-16   30    7       0       0.069    6.1     0.4396    
73     Dwyane Wade             2009-10   28    1.4     8.8     0.005    4.3     0.4325    
74     Kevin Durant            2011-12   23    1.3     2.2     0.001    1.1     0.427     
75     Michael Jordan          1990-91   27    0.4     -0.5    0.012    2.6     0.4211    
76     Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1979-80   32    2.6     -2.8    0.026    1.7     0.4206    
77     Tim Duncan              2013-14   37    -0.2    3.3     0.04     -0.2    0.4156    
78     Kawhi Leonard           2015-16   24    2.6     -1.9    -0.006   2.4     0.4123    
79     Magic Johnson           1981-82   22    -0.4    2.4     0.024    1       0.4117    
80     John Stockton           1986-87   24    -0.8    14.5    0.026    0.8     0.3948    
81     Kevin Durant            2016-17   28    -0.1    3.2     0.002    1       0.3947    
82     Larry Bird              1985-86   29    -1.7    3.5     0.019    1.2     0.3907    
83     Scottie Pippen          1990-91   25    1.4     0.3     0.018    0.7     0.3866    
84     Moses Malone            1988-89   33    2.9     2.6     0.03     3.8     0.3788    
85     Wilt Chamberlain        1964-65   28    -1.5    3.9     0.003            0.373     
86     Tim Duncan              2011-12   35    0.4     -0.2    0.01     1.7     0.3687    
87     Dwyane Wade             2004-05   23    1.2     0       0.003    1.3     0.3672    
88     Walt Frazier            1972-73   27    0       2.5     -0.007           0.3647    
89     Chris Paul              2007-08   22    2.4     -1.1    0.005    0.9     0.3632    
90     Kevin Durant            2010-11   22    0.5     -0.7    0.028    1       0.3585    
91     Michael Jordan          1989-90   26    0.5     -1.4    -0.001   2.5     0.3555    
92     Jerry West              1961-62   23    -0.7    2       0.008            0.353     
93     Scottie Pippen          1999-00   34    1.1     -1.1    0.003    1.7     0.3515    
94     Dwyane Wade             2005-06   24    -0.7    1.6     0.001    1.6     0.3505    
95     Charles Barkley         1998-99   35    5.9     3.3     0.023    3.4     0.3479    
96     Tim Duncan              2000-01   24    1.6     -0.5    -0.027   2.2     0.3478    
97     Shaquille O'neal        1996-97   24    1.9     -0.4    0.018    0.7     0.3468    
98     Kevin Garnett           2000-01   24    1       3.8     0.079    4.1     0.3437    
99     Jimmy Butler            2019-20   30    0.2     3.1     -0.012   0.5     0.3367    
100    Karl Malone             1993-94   30    1.7     -1.9    0.016    0.9     0.3341    
101    Steve Nash              2009-10   35    0.8     1.9     -0.003   0.3     0.3337    
102    Magic Johnson           1987-88   28    -0.2    1.9     -0.001   0.9     0.3329    
103    Walt Frazier            1971-72   26    -0.1    1       0.004            0.3301    
104    Dwyane Wade             2010-11   29    0.7     -1.1    -0.002   1.8     0.3273    
105    Oscar Robertson         1970-71   32    1.5     -3      0.027            0.3258    
106    Kevin Durant            2020-21   32    0.5     -3.6    0.008    2.8     0.3245    
107    Kawhi Leonard           2019-20   28    0.9     0.4     0.002    0.5     0.3138    
108    Dirk Nowitzki           2010-11   32    1.8     -0.3    -0.003   0.4     0.3109    
109    Oscar Robertson         1973-74   35    0.9     0.1     -0.007   0.9     0.306     
110    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1978-79   31    1       2.4     0.003    0.4     0.3049    
111    Chris Paul              2014-15   29    -0.3    3.1     -0.022   0.7     0.3015    
112    Chris Paul              2012-13   27    2.8     3.9     -0.02    0.9     0.2897    
113    Kobe Bryant             2007-08   29    0.8     0.1     -0.03    1.6     0.2866    
114    Charles Barkley         1994-95   31    1.4     0.8     -0.008   -0.1    0.2852    
115    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2017-18   23    -0.7    2.2     0.032    0.9     0.2843    
116    Wilt Chamberlain        1963-64   27    -0.3    0.6     -0.002           0.2798    
117    Karl Malone             1991-92   28    -0.4    1.9     -0.017   0.8     0.2763    
118    Shaquille O'neal        2003-04   31    0.4     -1.3    0.01     0.7     0.2685    
119    Shaquille O'neal        2002-03   30    1.1     -3.2    -0.01    1.9     0.2606    
120    John Stockton           1990-91   28    -1.6    4       -0.009   0.4     0.2597    
121    Jerry West              1965-66   27    0.1     0.8     -0.019           0.2537    
122    Patrick Ewing           1992-93   30    0.8     -1.1    -0.015   1.1     0.2536    
123    Moses Malone            1979-80   24    0.8     1.7     -0.024   1.5     0.2443    
124    Kawhi Leonard           2022-23   31    6       4.7     0.033    7.7     0.244     
125    Magic Johnson           1986-87   27    -0.8    0.5     0.002    0.5     0.2421    
126    Hakeem Olajuwon         1992-93   30    -0.6    -0.9    -0.013   1.6     0.2354    
127    Michael Jordan          1992-93   29    0.4     -1.1    0        0.4     0.2302    
128    David Robinson          1990-91   25    -1.3    14.5    -0.03    0       0.2288    
129    Dirk Nowitzki           2005-06   27    -1.3    0.7     -0.012   1.1     0.2286    
130    Jayson Tatum            2020-21   22    2.8     0.1     -0.023   2.6     0.2283    
131    Dwyane Wade             2003-04   22    0.1     -0.3    0.001    0.1     0.2271    
132    Magic Johnson           1983-84   24    0.2     -2.7    0.007    1       0.2243    
133    Dirk Nowitzki           2007-08   29    1.7     0.3     -0.027   3       0.2149    
134    Bob Pettit              1959-60   27    -0.4    0.5     -0.019           0.2109    
135    George Mikan            1951-52   27    1       1.8     -0.062           0.2029    
136    Tim Duncan              2008-09   32    2.9     0.5     -0.02    1.3     0.1997    
137    Wilt Chamberlain        1959-60   23    -1.1    0.5     -0.004           0.1993    
138    Chris Paul              2016-17   31    1.6     -2.2    -0.018   1.7     0.1979    
139    Michael Jordan          1985-86   22    2.6     5.1     0.001    2.2     0.1953    
140    John Stockton           1985-86   23    0.2     7.8     0.008    -0.6    0.19      
141    Jimmy Butler            2014-15   25    -0.5    -2.1    -0.011   1.2     0.1796    
142    Steve Nash              2004-05   30    1.4     -0.2    -0.039   0       0.1781    
143    Kawhi Leonard           2013-14   22    -0.7    0.4     -0.002   -0.4    0.1756    
144    Kevin Garnett           1998-99   22    1.7     -0.5    -0.011   2.8     0.1727    
145    Nikola Jokic            2019-20   24    -0.1    0.9     -0.03    0       0.1718    
146    Charles Barkley         1995-96   32    2.7     -2.3    0.006    2.3     0.1712    
147    James Harden            2019-20   30    -1.6    1       -0.001   -0.2    0.1712    
148    David Robinson          2000-01   35    0.8     -2.1    -0.039   1.3     0.1709    
149    Julius Erving           1973-74   23    -1.7    0.8     0.014    -0.7    0.1671    
150    John Stockton           1996-97   34    0.6     -2.9    -0.025   1.2     0.1653    
151    Tim Duncan              2006-07   30    1.3     -2.3    -0.016   -0.1    0.1568    
152    Walt Frazier            1968-69   23    1.1     -3.5    -0.009           0.156     
153    John Stockton           1988-89   26    3       -2.3    -0.006   3.7     0.1498    
154    Hakeem Olajuwon         1990-91   28    -1.1    8       0.001    0.8     0.1486    
155    Oscar Robertson         1961-62   23    -0.6    3.2     -0.004           0.1483    
156    George Mikan            1949-50   25            -0.6                     0.147     
157    Kevin Durant            2017-18   29    -0.9    -3.4    0.022    0.3     0.1467    
158    Hakeem Olajuwon         1994-95   32    0.7     -0.3    -0.038   0       0.1465    
159    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1982-83   35    -0.8    -1.1    -0.033   1.1     0.1364    
160    Jerry West              1963-64   25    0.9     0.2     -0.022           0.1319    
161    Dirk Nowitzki           2001-02   23    0.7     -2.2    -0.029   0.9     0.1309    
162    David Robinson          1998-99   33    -1.6    -0.1    -0.018   0.4     0.1287    
163    Joel Embiid             2019-20   25    0.8     1       -0.027   1.5     0.1272    
164    Julius Erving           1977-78   27    -0.5    -2.2    -0.008   0.2     0.1204    
165    Dirk Nowitzki           2000-01   22    -0.5    -2.8    -0.018   0.9     0.1191    
166    Patrick Ewing           1996-97   34    -0.3    -0.1    -0.035   0.1     0.1108    
167    Chris Paul              2020-21   35    -0.7    -1.5    -0.023   0.4     0.1089    
168    Bill Russell            1967-68   33    -0.3    -0.3    -0.042           0.102     
169    Oscar Robertson         1962-63   24    0.1     -1.4    -0.035           0.1008    
170    Shaquille O'neal        2007-08   35    1.8     -10.3   0.024    2.8     0.1       
171    Kevin Garnett           2011-12   35    0.1     -0.9    -0.029   -0.4    0.0978    
172    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1984-85   37    -0.8    -2.6    -0.01    0.3     0.095     
173    Scottie Pippen          1991-92   26    -1.4    -1.1    -0.024   0.5     0.095     
174    George Mikan            1955-56   31    0.4     -1.3    0.016            0.0896    
175    Shaquille O'neal        2000-01   28    -1.5    -1      0.015    -1.2    0.0867    
176    Michael Jordan          1988-89   25    -1.2    -1.2    -0.022   0.2     0.0866    
177    Jimmy Butler            2012-13   23    -0.8    0.1     -0.053   0.5     0.0866    
178    Hakeem Olajuwon         1988-89   26    -1.1    -0.3    -0.015   1.4     0.0862    
179    Jerry West              1972-73   34    -0.5    -2.1    -0.022           0.0792    
180    Lebron James            2006-07   22    -0.6    -3.6    -0.006   0       0.0618    
181    Charles Barkley         1988-89   25    -2.7    3.8     -0.037   0.9     0.0578    
182    Patrick Ewing           1995-96   33    -2.8    0.6     -0.039   0.8     0.0561    
183    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2019-20   25    -0.6    -0.3    -0.041   -0.3    0.056     
184    Julius Erving           1972-73   22    -2.8    2.4     -0.034           0.0512    
185    Dirk Nowitzki           2011-12   33    0.8     -0.4    -0.036   -0.5    0.0484    
186    Lebron James            2011-12   27    -0.4    -2.9    -0.014   -0.4    0.0479    
187    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2020-21   26    -1.6    -3.4    -0.02    0.9     0.0453    
188    Jayson Tatum            2022-23   24    -1.1    -2.2    -0.017   -0.2    0.0452    
189    Scottie Pippen          1997-98   32    -0.9    -3.3    -0.027   0.6     0.0424    
190    Oscar Robertson         1966-67   28    -2.6    3.4     -0.051           0.04      
191    Michael Jordan          1991-92   28    -0.5    -0.8    -0.058   0.2     0.0378    
192    Michael Jordan          1995-96   32    -2.7    -1.8    -0.011   0.2     0.0288    
193    Wilt Chamberlain        1960-61   24    -1.1    -2.7    -0.001           0.0269    
194    John Stockton           1987-88   25    -0.7    -2.7    -0.037   0.3     0.0263    
195    Magic Johnson           1984-85   25    -0.9    -3.8    -0.01    -0.1    0.0252    
196    Moses Malone            1978-79   23    5       -10.3   -0.034   1.7     0.0243    
197    Karl Malone             1999-00   36    -1.3    0.2     -0.055   -0.2    0.0181    
198    David Robinson          1999-00   34    1       -10.5   -0.018   2.6     0.0147    
199    Steve Nash              1997-98   23    0.9     -4.5    -0.056   1       0.0129    
200    Patrick Ewing           1994-95   32    -3      0.4     -0.006   -1.2    0.0128    
201    David Robinson          1989-90   24    -1.9    -1.6    -0.022   -0.3    0.0106    
202    Bob Pettit              1956-57   24    -3.2    1       -0.038           0.0028    
203    Kevin Garnett           2001-02   25    1.7     -2.2    -0.073   -0.5    0.0015    
204    Hakeem Olajuwon         1984-85   22    -1.4    -7.4    -0.008   1.7     0.0014    
205    Jerry West              1966-67   28    -4.6    0       -0.2             0         
206    Patrick Ewing           1987-88   25    -1.2    -3.2    -0.034   0.2     -0.0044   
207    Shaquille O'neal        2001-02   29    -1.4    -2.1    -0.026   -0.5    -0.007    
208    Stephen Curry           2012-13   24    -0.8    -3.1    -0.019   -0.7    -0.0085   
209    Patrick Ewing           1989-90   27    -0.4    -2      -0.05    -0.3    -0.0088   
210    Michael Jordan          1996-97   33    -0.7    -4.3    -0.048   1       -0.0109   
211    Charles Barkley         1990-91   27    -2.1    -0.5    -0.041   -0.4    -0.0136   
212    Michael Jordan          1986-87   23    -1.7    -3.3    -0.082   1.9     -0.0157   
213    Scottie Pippen          1998-99   33    1.9     -8.2    -0.035   0.2     -0.0173   
214    Wilt Chamberlain        1971-72   35    -0.7    -4.8    -0.014           -0.025    
215    John Stockton           1992-93   30    -2.7    -2.4    -0.032   0.1     -0.0259   
216    Kevin Garnett           2009-10   33    -1.8    -3.9    -0.023   0.3     -0.0261   
217    Jimmy Butler            2013-14   24    -2.1    -1.5    -0.035   -0.8    -0.0301   
218    Shaquille O'neal        1994-95   22    -2.5    0.7     -0.05    -0.6    -0.0307   
219    Moses Malone            1987-88   32    -2.9    -1.4    -0.038   -0.3    -0.0341   
220    Moses Malone            1986-87   31    -4.5    0.6     -0.073   0.4     -0.0355   
221    Chris Paul              2019-20   34    -2.4    -0.6    -0.052   -0.3    -0.039    
222    Jerry West              1964-65   26    1.7     -3.8    -0.072           -0.0392   
223    Oscar Robertson         1963-64   25    -2.9    -0.8    -0.033           -0.0423   
224    Lebron James            2009-10   25    -2.5    0.3     -0.057   -0.3    -0.043    
225    Larry Bird              1989-90   33    -1.2    -0.7    -0.051   -1.6    -0.043    
226    Nikola Jokic            2022-23   27    -0.3    -7      -0.003   -0.2    -0.0432   
227    Scottie Pippen          1995-96   30    -1.6    -7.8    -0.014   1.5     -0.0476   
228    Chris Paul              2013-14   28    -2.3    0.3     -0.075   0.2     -0.049    
229    James Harden            2014-15   25    -1.9    1.5     -0.063   -1.2    -0.0493   
230    Stephen Curry           2018-19   30    -1.8    -2.1    -0.014   -1.4    -0.0509   
231    Moses Malone            1981-82   26    -2.5    -8.7    -0.035   1.4     -0.0534   
232    Kobe Bryant             2006-07   28    -2      -1.9    -0.078   0.2     -0.0584   
233    Julius Erving           1981-82   31    -3.4    -1.2    -0.044   0.3     -0.061    
234    Bill Russell            1968-69   34    0.1     -1.9    -0.077           -0.0662   
235    Chris Paul              2018-19   33    -2.1    -0.3    -0.04    -1.4    -0.0713   
236    John Stockton           1997-98   35    -1.8    -5.9    -0.027   0.8     -0.0713   
237    Julius Erving           1984-85   34    -3.1    -2.9    -0.027   0.1     -0.0732   
238    Walt Frazier            1967-68   22    -1.8    -3.2    -0.062           -0.0736   
239    Kawhi Leonard           2014-15   23    -2.1    0.4     -0.061   -1.5    -0.0761   
240    Wilt Chamberlain        1961-62   25    -2.4    -2.8    -0.026           -0.0776   
241    Shaquille O'neal        1999-00   27    -0.1    -2.2    -0.059   -1.2    -0.0827   
242    Larry Bird              1979-80   23    -2.2    -2.7    -0.046   -0.2    -0.0855   
243    Karl Malone             1988-89   25    -2.3    -1.8    -0.093   -1.8    -0.0878   
244    Oscar Robertson         1965-66   27    -0.9    -3.3    -0.074           -0.0885   
245    Julius Erving           1979-80   29    -2.9    -1.5    -0.035   -0.7    -0.0892   
246    Bill Russell            1958-59   24    -1.9    -3.9    -0.024           -0.0901   
247    James Harden            2015-16   26    -3.5    -4.3    -0.098   2.2     -0.0938   
248    Charles Barkley         1992-93   29    -1      -4.4    -0.027   -0.9    -0.094    
249    Steve Nash              2001-02   27    -2      -1.7    -0.057   -0.8    -0.0955   
250    David Robinson          1992-93   27    -2.6    -4      -0.025   -0.3    -0.108    
251    Kevin Garnett           2002-03   26    -1.4    -1.4    -0.084   -1.4    -0.1145   
252    Dwyane Wade             2016-17   35    -3      -3.6    -0.027   -1.5    -0.1163   
253    Karl Malone             1994-95   31    -0.5    -4      -0.096   -0.9    -0.1185   
254    Lebron James            2014-15   30    -0.6    -9      -0.026   0.8     -0.119    
255    Scottie Pippen          1993-94   28    -0.4    -2.3    -0.045   -2.1    -0.1203   
256    Bill Russell            1963-64   29    -0.4    -5.5    -0.039           -0.1246   
257    Charles Barkley         1997-98   34    -5.4    -0.6    -0.063   -1.8    -0.1248   
258    Nikola Jokic            2021-22   26    0.3     -1.8    -0.094   -3      -0.1283   
259    Bill Russell            1957-58   23    -1.2    -4.5    -0.044           -0.1301   
260    Bill Russell            1956-57   22    -2.2    -5.2    -0.014           -0.1311   
261    Moses Malone            1983-84   28    -4.8    -1.5    -0.065   -0.9    -0.1317   
262    James Harden            2011-12   22    -0.2    -5.5    -0.046   -0.8    -0.1381   
263    George Mikan            1950-51   26            -3.2                     -0.1397   
264    Hakeem Olajuwon         1997-98   35    -2      -8.2    -0.082   1.1     -0.1399   
265    Kevin Garnett           1999-00   23    -3.1    -10.4   -0.07    1.1     -0.1483   
266    Shaquille O'neal        2006-07   34    -1.8    -3.8    -0.111   -1.7    -0.1509   
267    Scottie Pippen          1992-93   27    -2.3    -0.6    -0.049   -2      -0.1516   
268    Joel Embiid             2020-21   26    -4.1    -0.5    -0.069   0       -0.1523   
269    Moses Malone            1980-81   25    -2.7    -4.8    -0.028   -0.4    -0.1532   
270    Kobe Bryant             2001-02   23    -2.7    -3.3    -0.051   -0.3    -0.1563   
271    Steve Nash              2005-06   31    -2      -1.7    -0.059   -1.3    -0.1563   
272    Magic Johnson           1989-90   30    -1.6    -2.4    -0.048   -2.1    -0.166    
273    Patrick Ewing           1991-92   29    -2.9    -6.1    -0.031   0.3     -0.1686   
274    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1980-81   33    -3.1    -9.9    -0.071   -2.2    -0.1699   
275    Scottie Pippen          1994-95   29    -3.7    -1      -0.038   -1.6    -0.1729   
276    Wilt Chamberlain        1965-66   29    -2.3    -4.7    -0.082           -0.1746   
277    George Mikan            1952-53   28    -2.3    -2.6    -0.059           -0.1766   
278    Bob Pettit              1958-59   26    -5.3    -1.5    -0.058           -0.1805   
279    Michael Jordan          1987-88   24    -3.3    -0.5    -0.074   -0.8    -0.1808   
280    Dirk Nowitzki           2002-03   24    -2.4    1.2     -0.077   -2.2    -0.1811   
281    Joel Embiid             2018-19   24    -4.3    -3.4    -0.045   0.2     -0.183    
282    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2016-17   22    -4.2    -3.6    -0.072   -0.7    -0.1874   
283    Tim Duncan              2004-05   28    -2.1    -1.4    -0.054   -2.1    -0.1887   
284    Wilt Chamberlain        1968-69   32    -3.6    -4.6    -0.015           -0.1903   
285    James Harden            2021-22   32    -4.1    0.1     -0.04    -2.1    -0.1908   
286    David Robinson          1995-96   30    -0.3    -2      -0.076   -2.2    -0.1924   
287    Magic Johnson           1982-83   23    -2.4    -4.8    -0.051   -0.3    -0.1931   
288    Chris Paul              2017-18   32    -1.6    -3.9    -0.072   -0.5    -0.1947   
289    Jerry West              1969-70   31    -3.5    -2.2    -0.05            -0.1984   
290    Scottie Pippen          1996-97   31    -3.2    -2.8    -0.058   -0.6    -0.1989   
291    Jayson Tatum            2021-22   23    -4.2    -1.6    -0.059   -0.5    -0.1993   
292    James Harden            2012-13   23    -2.1    -5.2    -0.106   -0.3    -0.2012   
293    Hakeem Olajuwon         1989-90   27    -3.6    -6.3    -0.092   -1.9    -0.2015   
294    Tim Duncan              2003-04   27    -3      2.6     -0.066   -3.3    -0.2024   
295    Magic Johnson           1990-91   31    -2.4    -2.5    -0.058   -1.4    -0.2044   
296    Dwyane Wade             2008-09   27    -4.1    -0.9    -0.037   -3.3    -0.2049   
297    Larry Bird              1991-92   35    -4.6    -3.3    -0.09    -3.3    -0.2127   
298    Karl Malone             1987-88   24    -2.3    -3.1    -0.058   -1.4    -0.22     
299    Lebron James            2010-11   26    -3.6    -3.1    -0.046   -1      -0.221    
300    Charles Barkley         1986-87   23    -4.9    -1.1    -0.06    -4.1    -0.2225   
301    Kobe Bryant             2003-04   25    -2.7    -4.5    -0.065   -0.3    -0.2325   
302    Magic Johnson           1988-89   29    -3.5    -1.6    -0.067   -1.2    -0.2336   
303    Bob Pettit              1960-61   28    -2.9    -1.7    -0.078           -0.2374   
304    Oscar Robertson         1964-65   26    -5.9    -3.3    -0.112           -0.2409   
305    Tim Duncan              2012-13   36    -3.1    -3.1    -0.03    -2.4    -0.2465   
306    Moses Malone            1984-85   29    -4.5    -6.8    -0.033   0.6     -0.2487   
307    Stephen Curry           2014-15   26    -3.5    -3.1    -0.06    -1.1    -0.2591   
308    Karl Malone             1986-87   23    -4.6    -5.4    -0.064   -3.1    -0.2609   
309    Julius Erving           1985-86   35    -3.3    -2.9    -0.046   -2      -0.2646   
310    Wilt Chamberlain        1967-68   31    -2      -4.6    -0.064           -0.265    
311    Scottie Pippen          2000-01   35    -5.5    -5.2    -0.178   -4      -0.272    
312    Patrick Ewing           1993-94   31    -2.3    -5.6    -0.061   -0.8    -0.2729   
313    Charles Barkley         1996-97   33    -2.5    -2.4    -0.06    -2.4    -0.2742   
314    Larry Bird              1982-83   26    -3.8    -8.3    -0.091   -0.1    -0.2773   
315    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1981-82   34    -3.3    -5.8    -0.048   -0.6    -0.2774   
316    Bob Pettit              1964-65   32    -7.3    -4.8    -0.096           -0.2785   
317    Kobe Bryant             2010-11   32    -3.3    -1.2    -0.079   -1.8    -0.2806   
318    Bob Pettit              1957-58   25    -3.7    -2      -0.075           -0.2875   
319    Shaquille O'neal        1998-99   26    -1.8    -6.9    -0.079   -1.1    -0.2878   
320    Shaquille O'neal        2005-06   33    -4.5    -1.5    -0.061   -1.7    -0.2907   
321    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1977-78   30    -7.3    -6.3    -0.127   -5.6    -0.2978   
322    Tim Duncan              2007-08   31    -2.5    -5.8    -0.078   -0.3    -0.3006   
323    Kevin Garnett           2007-08   31    -2.3    -4.6    -0.066   -1.6    -0.3034   
324    Wilt Chamberlain        1966-67   30    -1.2    -9.1    -0.032           -0.3075   
325    Steve Nash              2007-08   33    -4.3    -10.3   -0.078   -1.8    -0.3127   
326    Dwyane Wade             2013-14   32    -3.5    -2.8    -0.063   -2      -0.3141   
327    Steve Nash              2006-07   32    -1.9    -7.7    -0.06    -0.7    -0.3163   
328    Karl Malone             1990-91   27    -3.4    -6      -0.071   -0.7    -0.3189   
329    Hakeem Olajuwon         1995-96   33    -5.5    -1.4    -0.087   -1.8    -0.324    
330    Jimmy Butler            2017-18   28    -6.8    -3.3    -0.1     -3.2    -0.3242   
331    Lebron James            2007-08   23    -4.8    -4.3    -0.055   -0.8    -0.3245   
332    Oscar Robertson         1971-72   33    -2.5    -7.8    -0.033           -0.3298   
333    Kevin Durant            2012-13   24    -2.3    -7.3    -0.081   0       -0.3304   
334    Joel Embiid             2017-18   23    -4.8    -5.4    -0.059   -1.5    -0.3328   
335    Stephen Curry           2013-14   25    -5.3    -1.1    -0.094   -3      -0.3364   
336    Karl Malone             1997-98   34    -3.7    -6.3    -0.075   -0.2    -0.3561   
337    Lebron James            2012-13   28    -3.5    -5.5    -0.062   -1.3    -0.357    
338    Patrick Ewing           1988-89   26    -3      -7.1    -0.043   -2.3    -0.3624   
339    Karl Malone             1995-96   32    -2.4    -7.7    -0.062   -1      -0.3626   
340    Julius Erving           1983-84   33    -7.7    -3.1    -0.109   -3.8    -0.3714   
341    Moses Malone            1990-91   35    -4.1    -16.9   -0.052   -1.4    -0.3719   
342    Wilt Chamberlain        1969-70   33    -4.5    -2.6    -0.081           -0.3819   
343    Steve Nash              2003-04   29    -5      -13     -0.07    -2.5    -0.385    
344    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1970-71   23    -3.7    -5.8    -0.055           -0.3874   
345    Stephen Curry           2022-23   34    -3.7    -6.8    -0.061   -1      -0.3875   
346    Dwyane Wade             2011-12   30    -4.3    -3.3    -0.062   -2.6    -0.4016   
347    Steve Nash              2002-03   28    -4.5    -1.1    -0.093   -2.4    -0.4045   
348    James Harden            2016-17   27    -4.4    -3      -0.088   -1.7    -0.406    
349    Tim Duncan              2010-11   34    -6.4    -3.7    -0.118   -3.3    -0.4182   
350    James Harden            2022-23   33    -3.1    -6.9    -0.077   -1.3    -0.4247   
351    James Harden            2013-14   24    -5.2    -9.9    -0.11    -1.4    -0.4254   
352    Larry Bird              1990-91   34    -3.9    -4      -0.062   -3      -0.4327   
353    Steve Nash              2000-01   26    -4.5    -5      -0.087   -1.1    -0.4364   
354    Kobe Bryant             2002-03   24    -4      -1.9    -0.079   -3.4    -0.4365   
355    John Stockton           1991-92   29    -3.4    -4.2    -0.093   -2.1    -0.4402   
356    Walt Frazier            1969-70   24    -4.6    -4.4    -0.073           -0.4402   
357    Karl Malone             2000-01   37    -5      -8.8    -0.169   -2.7    -0.4494   
358    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2022-23   28    -10.2   -8      -0.23    -6.5    -0.4503   
359    Bill Russell            1966-67   32    -3.3    -6.4    -0.088           -0.4538   
360    Charles Barkley         1989-90   26    -2.1    -7.2    -0.093   -1.8    -0.4637   
361    Patrick Ewing           1990-91   28    -13.4   -8.9    -0.204   -5.6    -0.4643   
362    Larry Bird              1981-82   25    -4.7    -8.3    -0.051   -1.2    -0.4685   
363    Jimmy Butler            2016-17   27    -5.7    -5.8    -0.12    -4      -0.4714   
364    Wilt Chamberlain        1970-71   34    -1.2    -7.9    -0.097           -0.4782   
365    Bob Pettit              1955-56   23    -5.9    -2      -0.128           -0.4798   
366    John Stockton           1994-95   32    -3.8    -10.5   -0.146   -4.7    -0.485    
367    John Stockton           1993-94   31    -2.6    -8.5    -0.07    -2.3    -0.5014   
368    Julius Erving           1974-75   24    -6.1    -5.8    -0.154   -5.9    -0.506    
369    Kobe Bryant             2005-06   27    -8.1    2.8     -0.137   -5.2    -0.5077   
370    Karl Malone             1989-90   26    -7.5    -12.1   -0.138   -2.9    -0.5258   
371    John Stockton           1999-00   37    -4      -4.3    -0.09    -3.1    -0.5258   
372    David Robinson          1997-98   32    -3.7    -8.5    -0.086   -2.2    -0.5265   
373    Larry Bird              1986-87   30    -4.6    -3.5    -0.091   -3.1    -0.5283   
374    James Harden            2018-19   29    -5.4    -4.9    -0.065   -2.9    -0.5303   
375    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2018-19   24    -4.4    -7.4    -0.073   -2      -0.5329   
376    Kevin Garnett           2010-11   34    -3.3    -9.6    -0.081   -2.3    -0.5377   
377    Nikola Jokic            2020-21   25    -1.7    -5.6    -0.12    -3.1    -0.5451   
378    David Robinson          1993-94   28    -8.7    -10.6   -0.191   -5.7    -0.5479   
379    Dwyane Wade             2012-13   31    -5.3    -7.3    -0.084   -1.3    -0.5533   
380    John Stockton           1989-90   27    -5.9    -12.5   -0.132   -5.4    -0.5689   
381    Jimmy Butler            2022-23   33    -3.6    -8.2    -0.088   -2.2    -0.5758   
382    Stephen Curry           2017-18   29    -5.9    -8.5    -0.085   -0.6    -0.5779   
383    Larry Bird              1984-85   28    -5.6    -4.9    -0.083   -2.8    -0.5793   
384    Julius Erving           1980-81   30    -4.5    -4.5    -0.114   -2.7    -0.5912   
385    Giannis Antetokounmpo   2021-22   27    -5.3    -8.1    -0.103   -0.8    -0.5973   
386    Kevin Garnett           2003-04   27    -4.4    -3.4    -0.109   -3.7    -0.6008   
387    Kevin Durant            2022-23   34    -4.8    -7.8    -0.08    -2.5    -0.6138   
388    Karl Malone             1992-93   29    -9.6    -8.4    -0.153   -6.1    -0.6316   
389    Tim Duncan              2009-10   33    -5      -3.3    -0.124   -3.3    -0.6373   
390    John Stockton           1998-99   36    -3.8    -8.4    -0.101   -2.5    -0.6439   
391    John Stockton           1995-96   33    -4.9    -9.8    -0.058   -2.9    -0.6534   
392    Dirk Nowitzki           2006-07   28    -6.7    -9.6    -0.15    -5.2    -0.6661   
393    James Harden            2017-18   28    -4.9    -7.1    -0.126   -1.8    -0.6693   
394    Karl Malone             1998-99   35    -4.4    -8.5    -0.117   -2.2    -0.696    
395    Bob Pettit              1963-64   31    -5.3    -5.2    -0.129           -0.71     
396    Larry Bird              1987-88   31    -7.6    -7      -0.092   -2.1    -0.7164   
397    David Robinson          1994-95   29    -6.5    -6.6    -0.097   -3.1    -0.731    
398    Patrick Ewing           1997-98   35    -12.6   -14.5   -0.201   -8.2    -0.7426   
399    Kevin Durant            2021-22   33    -12     -10.8   -0.224   -10.1   -0.7548   
400    Dwyane Wade             2006-07   25    -13.7   -10.4   -0.279   -8.8    -0.8033   
401    Julius Erving           1982-83   32    -7.1    -7      -0.104   -3.6    -0.8207   
402    Shaquille O'neal        2004-05   32    -8.9    -2.9    -0.122   -4.2    -0.8482   
403    Dirk Nowitzki           2004-05   26    -6      -7.3    -0.144   -3.6    -0.8855   
404    Jerry West              1971-72   33    -4.3    -10.1   -0.138           -0.8998   
405    Kevin Durant            2013-14   25    -7.2    -6.5    -0.15    -3.8    -0.94     
406    Karl Malone             1996-97   33    -6.7    -9.9    -0.141   -4.3    -1.0398   
407    Dirk Nowitzki           2013-14   35    -9.7    -12.3   -0.188   -6.3    -1.0506   
408    Jimmy Butler            2020-21   31    -16.8   -21.3   -0.319   -9.1    -1.0524   
409    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1972-73   25    -10.8   -13.3   -0.242           -1.0699   
410    Chris Paul              2011-12   26    -7      -5.6    -0.175   -5.5    -1.0739   
411    Chris Paul              2008-09   23    -13.9   -9.4    -0.327   -9.5    -1.0762   
412    Stephen Curry           2015-16   27    -9.2    -6.6    -0.166   -4.9    -1.143    
413    Kevin Durant            2015-16   27    -7.9    -9.2    -0.14    -5.9    -1.1686   
414    Joel Embiid             2021-22   27    -12.1   -2.6    -0.135   -9.1    -1.3246   
415    Joel Embiid             2022-23   28    -11.1   -9.4    -0.169   -7.3    -1.3324   
416    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar     1971-72   24    -7.5    -14.1   -0.193           -1.4556

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:34 am**

Where do you see value in these numbers if we compare

Thomas +0.3422
Curry -0.1613

or

Kobe +0.0856
Curry -0.1613

from All time PO leaders tables from RS to PS

PER Curry from 20th to 20th vs Kobe from 28th to 24th
TS Curry from 6th to 10th vs Kobe from ... to 171th
WS/48 Curry from 25th to 16th vs Kobe from 62th to 56th
BPM Curry from 12th to 8th vs from Kobe 21th to 26th

Kobe as a riser isnt close to Curry as a faller in any cut.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 6:59 pm**

f4p wrote:So Isiah pops in at 2nd place, Reggie at 6th, Clyde poor but not horrible, and Payton pretty bad. Payton got a bit hit from the 2004 season, which is just at the age cutoff, but he also kind of got saved by the 1995 playoffs only being 5 games and, thus it only counting for half its value, despite being a historic upset.

edit: frank ramsey actually takes over the top spot and hagan is now 3rd. heinsohn pretty good. cousy basically neutral.

Isiah = 0.3422
Reggie = 0.2665
Clyde = -0.0793
Payton = -0.1708

Code: Select all
Rk Player Name Resiliency 1 Frank Ramsey 0.4692 2 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561 3 Cliff Hagan 0.4376 4 Isiah Thomas 0.3422 5 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315 6 George Mikan 0.3246 7 Lebron James 0.2747 8 Reggie Miller 0.2665 9 Bill Russell 0.2548 10 Walt Frazier 0.2318 11 Jerry West 0.2142 12 Michael Jordan 0.2081 13 Tim Duncan 0.166 14 Tom Heinsohn 0.1508 15 Magic Johnson 0.0968 16 Scottie Pippen 0.0963 17 Oscar Robertson 0.0865 18 Kobe Bryant 0.0856 19 Charles Barkley 0.0779 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554 21 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534 22 Jayson Tatum 0.0247 23 Nikola Jokic 0.0205 24 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179 25 Moses Malone 0.0093 26 Dwyane Wade -0.0021 27 Chris Paul -0.0156 28 Julius Erving -0.0231 29 Bob Cousy -0.0336 30 Jimmy Butler -0.0341 31 Clyde Drexler -0.0793 32 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851 33 Kevin Garnett -0.1115 34 Larry Bird -0.1327 35 Kevin Durant -0.1435 36 Patrick Ewing -0.1446 37 David Robinson -0.1552 38 Steve Nash -0.1582 39 Stephen Curry -0.1613 40 Bob Pettit -0.1624 41 Gary Payton -0.1708 42 John Stockton -0.182 43 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975 44 James Harden -0.1982 45 Karl Malone -0.2959 46 Joel Embiid -0.533

Love the love for Hagan.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:35 pm**

SpreeS wrote:Where do you see value in these numbers if we compare

Thomas +0.3422
Curry -0.1613

or

Kobe +0.0856
Curry -0.1613

from All time PO leaders tables from RS to PS

PER Curry from 20th to 20th vs Kobe from 28th to 24th
TS Curry from 6th to 10th vs Kobe from ... to 171th
WS/48 Curry from 25th to 16th vs Kobe from 62th to 56th
BPM Curry from 12th to 8th vs from Kobe 21th to 26th

Kobe as a riser isnt close to Curry as a faller in any cut.

the first thing i see is someone asked about playoff risers so these are the numbers (well, numbers, maybe not the numbers).

as for kobe and curry, one thing we can see in terms of effect is that kobe rises from 1.41 expected championships to 5 actual championships while curry rose from 2.65 expected championships to 4 actual championships. so it helped kobe go from winning less in the regular season to winning more in the playoffs, thus becoming a better winner who beat a better collective groups of opponents along the way.

also, i don't feel like looking it all up, but a lot of curry's numbers compared to the regular season look good because he didn't make the playoffs his first 3 years and that drags down a lot of his regular season numbers without affecting his playoff numbers. you would have to compare using the years he actually made the playoffs.

Posted: **Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:59 pm**

As much as Zeke can get overvalued by older school fans (as well as undervalued to push back from more analytically driven communities), it's vindicating to see him grade very highly from a PS translation standpoint. Of course, never that much a needle mover as a scorer - but his aggressiveness did pay off in some essence it looks like. Of course, his world-class playmaking should go without saying either.

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2023 12:58 am**

f4p wrote:
SpreeS wrote:Where do you see value in these numbers if we compare

Thomas +0.3422
Curry -0.1613

or

Kobe +0.0856
Curry -0.1613

from All time PO leaders tables from RS to PS

PER Curry from 20th to 20th vs Kobe from 28th to 24th
TS Curry from 6th to 10th vs Kobe from ... to 171th
WS/48 Curry from 25th to 16th vs Kobe from 62th to 56th
BPM Curry from 12th to 8th vs from Kobe 21th to 26th

Kobe as a riser isnt close to Curry as a faller in any cut.

the first thing i see is someone asked about playoff risers so these are the numbers (well, numbers, maybe not the numbers).

as for kobe and curry, one thing we can see in terms of effect is that kobe rises from 1.41 expected championships to 5 actual championships while curry rose from 2.65 expected championships to 4 actual championships. so it helped kobe go from winning less in the regular season to winning more in the playoffs, thus becoming a better winner who beat a better collective groups of opponents along the way.

also, i don't feel like looking it all up, but a lot of curry's numbers compared to the regular season look good because he didn't make the playoffs his first 3 years and that drags down a lot of his regular season numbers without affecting his playoff numbers. you would have to compare using the years he actually made the playoffs.

Yeah I don’t think you can infer that a player “rising” in box score numbers in the playoffs is the sole (or even particularly substantial) reason for his team having more actual championships than “expected championships.” There’s just an absolutely enormous number of other factors that go into how much a team overperformed (or underperformed) their “expected championships,” not to mention a ton of randomness.

As an example with Kobe Bryant, it really helped in this regard that for three of his titles (and most of the years he had on a team with any chance of winning a title) he had a superstar teammate that was famous in that era for coasting in the regular season (indeed, that coasting caused substantial rifts between the two players). Less concretely, I’d also note that those Lakers teams faced a lot of teams that were the types of teams that typically underperform their SRS in the playoffs: Teams that have a high SRS but no MVP-level superstar. Like, it’s still impressive to beat those early-2000s Kings and Blazers teams or the late 2000s Jazz team, but those are the types of teams that are overestimated by SRS, which would then overestimate teams that beat them. Conversely, the method is going to underestimate teams that face quintessential playoff overperforming teams—such as the 2015-2018 Cavaliers, that are relatively old and don’t really go all out in the regular season. There’s also injuries and a million other things. I don’t think we can really draw some substantial causal link between box score “rising” and overperforming “expected championships.” And that’s especially true when the causal link could be reversed: As in, perhaps a player’s box score stats rise or fall in part because the situations were easier or harder (including as compared to SRS), rather than vice versa.

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:25 am**

f4p wrote:
SpreeS wrote:Where do you see value in these numbers if we compare

Thomas +0.3422
Curry -0.1613

or

Kobe +0.0856
Curry -0.1613

from All time PO leaders tables from RS to PS

PER Curry from 20th to 20th vs Kobe from 28th to 24th
TS Curry from 6th to 10th vs Kobe from ... to 171th
WS/48 Curry from 25th to 16th vs Kobe from 62th to 56th
BPM Curry from 12th to 8th vs from Kobe 21th to 26th

Kobe as a riser isnt close to Curry as a faller in any cut.

the first thing i see is someone asked about playoff risers so these are the numbers (well, numbers, maybe not the numbers).

as for kobe and curry, one thing we can see in terms of effect is that kobe rises from 1.41 expected championships to 5 actual championships while curry rose from 2.65 expected championships to 4 actual championships. so it helped kobe go from winning less in the regular season to winning more in the playoffs, thus becoming a better winner who beat a better collective groups of opponents along the way.

also, i don't feel like looking it all up, but a lot of curry's numbers compared to the regular season look good because he didn't make the playoffs his first 3 years and that drags down a lot of his regular season numbers without affecting his playoff numbers. you would have to compare using the years he actually made the playoffs.

.

And what a number is expected championships?

Posted: **Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:20 pm**

rk2023 wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:fp4 made something
1 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561
2 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315
3 George Mikan 0.3246
4 Lebron James 0.2747
5 Bill Russell 0.2548
6 Walt Frazier 0.2318
7 Jerry West 0.2142
8 Michael Jordan 0.2081
9 Tim Duncan 0.166
10 Magic Johnson 0.0968
11 Scottie Pippen 0.0963
12 Oscar Robertson 0.0865
13 Kobe Bryant 0.0856
14 Charles Barkley 0.0779
15 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554
16 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534
17 Jayson Tatum 0.0247
18 Nikola Jokic 0.0205
19 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179
20 Moses Malone 0.0093
21 Dwyane Wade -0.0021
22 Chris Paul -0.0156
23 Julius Erving -0.0231
24 Jimmy Butler -0.0341
25 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851
26 Kevin Garnett -0.1115
27 Larry Bird -0.1327
28 Kevin Durant -0.1435
29 Patrick Ewing -0.1446
30 David Robinson -0.1552
31 Steve Nash -0.1582
32 Stephen Curry -0.1613
33 Bob Pettit -0.1624
34 John Stockton -0.182
35 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975
36 James Harden -0.1982
37 Karl Malone -0.2959
38 Joel Embiid -0.533

my top players all at the top

Didn’t know you were a Jordan or Frazier guy

pippen carryin obvs 8-)

dont know anythin bout frazier

Posted: **Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:06 pm**

SpreeS wrote:
f4p wrote:
SpreeS wrote:Where do you see value in these numbers if we compare

Thomas +0.3422
Curry -0.1613

or

Kobe +0.0856
Curry -0.1613

from All time PO leaders tables from RS to PS

PER Curry from 20th to 20th vs Kobe from 28th to 24th
TS Curry from 6th to 10th vs Kobe from ... to 171th
WS/48 Curry from 25th to 16th vs Kobe from 62th to 56th
BPM Curry from 12th to 8th vs from Kobe 21th to 26th

Kobe as a riser isnt close to Curry as a faller in any cut.

the first thing i see is someone asked about playoff risers so these are the numbers (well, numbers, maybe not the numbers).

as for kobe and curry, one thing we can see in terms of effect is that kobe rises from 1.41 expected championships to 5 actual championships while curry rose from 2.65 expected championships to 4 actual championships. so it helped kobe go from winning less in the regular season to winning more in the playoffs, thus becoming a better winner who beat a better collective groups of opponents along the way.

also, i don't feel like looking it all up, but a lot of curry's numbers compared to the regular season look good because he didn't make the playoffs his first 3 years and that drags down a lot of his regular season numbers without affecting his playoff numbers. you would have to compare using the years he actually made the playoffs.
.

And what a number is expected championships?

viewtopic.php?p=107407815#p107407815

basically just using the team's SRS and their playoff opponents SRS to calculate their expected championships. kobe's teams effectively won much more than their SRS would imply.

lessthanjake wrote:As an example with Kobe Bryant, it really helped in this regard that for three of his titles (and most of the years he had on a team with any chance of winning a title) he had a superstar teammate that was famous in that era for coasting in the regular season (indeed, that coasting caused substantial rifts between the two players).

so the general perception of shaq is that he coasted. i would say it might even be a little true. but looking at these resiliency numbers, shaq shows up right in the middle of the pack at +0.018. so basically neutral. in fact, if we just look at the 2000-2002 period, shaq is at -0.001, or as close to 0 as you can get (-0.083, +0.087, -0.070). in the 3 regular seasons of 2000-2002, shaq led the league in PER all 3 years (led the playoffs all 3 years), led the league in WS48 twice (led the playoffs twice), and led the league in BPM all 3 years (did not lead the playoffs in any year). so other than missing some games in 2002 and trying harder on defense in 2001 (and they would have probably won even if shaq didn't try way harder), shaq was producing like crazy in the regular seasons during their championship runs.

Posted: **Fri Aug 18, 2023 8:55 pm**

f4p wrote:So Isiah pops in at 2nd place, Reggie at 6th, Clyde poor but not horrible, and Payton pretty bad. Payton got a bit hit from the 2004 season, which is just at the age cutoff, but he also kind of got saved by the 1995 playoffs only being 5 games and, thus it only counting for half its value, despite being a historic upset.

edit: frank ramsey actually takes over the top spot and hagan is now 3rd. heinsohn pretty good. cousy basically neutral.

Isiah = 0.3422
Reggie = 0.2665
Clyde = -0.0793
Payton = -0.1708

Code: Select all
Rk Player Name Resiliency 1 Frank Ramsey 0.4692 2 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561 3 Cliff Hagan 0.4376 4 Isiah Thomas 0.3422 5 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315 6 George Mikan 0.3246 7 Lebron James 0.2747 8 Reggie Miller 0.2665 9 Bill Russell 0.2548 10 Walt Frazier 0.2318 11 Jerry West 0.2142 12 Michael Jordan 0.2081 13 Tim Duncan 0.166 14 Tom Heinsohn 0.1508 15 Magic Johnson 0.0968 16 Scottie Pippen 0.0963 17 Oscar Robertson 0.0865 18 Kobe Bryant 0.0856 19 Charles Barkley 0.0779 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554 21 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534 22 Jayson Tatum 0.0247 23 Nikola Jokic 0.0205 24 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179 25 Moses Malone 0.0093 26 Dwyane Wade -0.0021 27 Chris Paul -0.0156 28 Julius Erving -0.0231 29 Bob Cousy -0.0336 30 Jimmy Butler -0.0341 31 Clyde Drexler -0.0793 32 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851 33 Kevin Garnett -0.1115 34 Larry Bird -0.1327 35 Kevin Durant -0.1435 36 Patrick Ewing -0.1446 37 David Robinson -0.1552 38 Steve Nash -0.1582 39 Stephen Curry -0.1613 40 Bob Pettit -0.1624 41 Gary Payton -0.1708 42 John Stockton -0.182 43 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975 44 James Harden -0.1982 45 Karl Malone -0.2959 46 Joel Embiid -0.533

Thank you, that was my impression of Frank Ramsey and Cliff Hagan too, though I am surprised to see Cousy neutral. He must have been a playoff riser in the pre-Russell years because he was an absolute efficiency dog in the Russell championships. Nice to see Mikan high too.

Posted: **Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:41 pm**

penbeast0 wrote:
f4p wrote:So Isiah pops in at 2nd place, Reggie at 6th, Clyde poor but not horrible, and Payton pretty bad. Payton got a bit hit from the 2004 season, which is just at the age cutoff, but he also kind of got saved by the 1995 playoffs only being 5 games and, thus it only counting for half its value, despite being a historic upset.

edit: frank ramsey actually takes over the top spot and hagan is now 3rd. heinsohn pretty good. cousy basically neutral.

Isiah = 0.3422
Reggie = 0.2665
Clyde = -0.0793
Payton = -0.1708

Code: Select all
Rk Player Name Resiliency 1 Frank Ramsey 0.4692 2 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561 3 Cliff Hagan 0.4376 4 Isiah Thomas 0.3422 5 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315 6 George Mikan 0.3246 7 Lebron James 0.2747 8 Reggie Miller 0.2665 9 Bill Russell 0.2548 10 Walt Frazier 0.2318 11 Jerry West 0.2142 12 Michael Jordan 0.2081 13 Tim Duncan 0.166 14 Tom Heinsohn 0.1508 15 Magic Johnson 0.0968 16 Scottie Pippen 0.0963 17 Oscar Robertson 0.0865 18 Kobe Bryant 0.0856 19 Charles Barkley 0.0779 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554 21 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534 22 Jayson Tatum 0.0247 23 Nikola Jokic 0.0205 24 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179 25 Moses Malone 0.0093 26 Dwyane Wade -0.0021 27 Chris Paul -0.0156 28 Julius Erving -0.0231 29 Bob Cousy -0.0336 30 Jimmy Butler -0.0341 31 Clyde Drexler -0.0793 32 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851 33 Kevin Garnett -0.1115 34 Larry Bird -0.1327 35 Kevin Durant -0.1435 36 Patrick Ewing -0.1446 37 David Robinson -0.1552 38 Steve Nash -0.1582 39 Stephen Curry -0.1613 40 Bob Pettit -0.1624 41 Gary Payton -0.1708 42 John Stockton -0.182 43 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975 44 James Harden -0.1982 45 Karl Malone -0.2959 46 Joel Embiid -0.533

Thank you, that was my impression of Frank Ramsey and Cliff Hagan too, though I am surprised to see Cousy neutral. He must have been a playoff riser in the pre-Russell years because he was an absolute efficiency dog in the Russell championships. Nice to see Mikan high too.

i kind of thought cousy would be terrible too. he's a decent riser before russell at 0.1352 but definitely a faller with russell at -0.1782, possibly compounded by the best number being when they didn't win the title in 1958 so in the seasons they won the title it looks even worse at a karl malone level of -0.2868. if you just look at the TS% component, during russell's years it's at -0.1977, which isn't great but is actually significantly better than someone like nash at -0.3502. of course, that's also just because cousy was inefficient in the regular season as well.

Posted: **Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:51 pm**

penbeast0 wrote:
f4p wrote:So Isiah pops in at 2nd place, Reggie at 6th, Clyde poor but not horrible, and Payton pretty bad. Payton got a bit hit from the 2004 season, which is just at the age cutoff, but he also kind of got saved by the 1995 playoffs only being 5 games and, thus it only counting for half its value, despite being a historic upset.

edit: frank ramsey actually takes over the top spot and hagan is now 3rd. heinsohn pretty good. cousy basically neutral.

Isiah = 0.3422
Reggie = 0.2665
Clyde = -0.0793
Payton = -0.1708

Code: Select all
Rk Player Name Resiliency 1 Frank Ramsey 0.4692 2 Kawhi Leonard 0.4561 3 Cliff Hagan 0.4376 4 Isiah Thomas 0.3422 5 Hakeem Olajuwon 0.3315 6 George Mikan 0.3246 7 Lebron James 0.2747 8 Reggie Miller 0.2665 9 Bill Russell 0.2548 10 Walt Frazier 0.2318 11 Jerry West 0.2142 12 Michael Jordan 0.2081 13 Tim Duncan 0.166 14 Tom Heinsohn 0.1508 15 Magic Johnson 0.0968 16 Scottie Pippen 0.0963 17 Oscar Robertson 0.0865 18 Kobe Bryant 0.0856 19 Charles Barkley 0.0779 20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 0.0554 21 Dirk Nowitzki 0.0534 22 Jayson Tatum 0.0247 23 Nikola Jokic 0.0205 24 Shaquille O'neal 0.0179 25 Moses Malone 0.0093 26 Dwyane Wade -0.0021 27 Chris Paul -0.0156 28 Julius Erving -0.0231 29 Bob Cousy -0.0336 30 Jimmy Butler -0.0341 31 Clyde Drexler -0.0793 32 Wilt Chamberlain -0.0851 33 Kevin Garnett -0.1115 34 Larry Bird -0.1327 35 Kevin Durant -0.1435 36 Patrick Ewing -0.1446 37 David Robinson -0.1552 38 Steve Nash -0.1582 39 Stephen Curry -0.1613 40 Bob Pettit -0.1624 41 Gary Payton -0.1708 42 John Stockton -0.182 43 Giannis Antetokounmpo -0.1975 44 James Harden -0.1982 45 Karl Malone -0.2959 46 Joel Embiid -0.533

Thank you, that was my impression of Frank Ramsey and Cliff Hagan too, though I am surprised to see Cousy neutral. He must have been a playoff riser in the pre-Russell years because he was an absolute efficiency dog in the Russell championships. Nice to see Mikan high too.

Cousy I think hold steady in the early years (PER probably benefits from the first year not being available, he manages to accumulate -0.4 OWS over 2 games). The thing is his WS/48 holds up okay [or probably quite a bit better than it should] in the Russell era because despite -0.8 OWS he accrues 7.1 DWS and looks average (.100 WS/48) ... he might be piggybacking someone else's credit there. I think the informed view after looking at the numbers - which may be what you recall - is worse than than the surface level number in this regard.

Even with that said it will also depend on how you aggregate the numbers and the player pool.

Using an arbitrary 2000 playoff minute qualifier (list from circa 2019 otoh)
I had him as 246th of 283 in PER "raise"
203 of 283 in WS/48 "raise" (cf above)

As ever raise and fall are relative to their own RS and are not absolute standards. They punish high performance over the larger sample.

RealGM

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