Peak Giannis vs Peak Jokic

[edgymnerch]

Who had the higher peak? Please mention which year you think was each one's respective peaks too so it's clearer!

[wafflzgod]

Jokic (23) > Giannis (22) for me. I have both top 12 post-1980 though.

[Ben AN]

I give Giannis the edge. The way I see it, Giannis has the higher floor because defensive value tends to be lower variance than offense. Most of his best offensive traits are also low variance (pushing the pace, being the GOAT at drawing fouls, finishing at the basket), just the getting the opposing team into the bonus early has value, even if you're not converting at the stripe. I also think his ceiling is higher, because on the occasions he gets hot, he's that much more explosive as a scorer. I have the 2 1-2 spots away in the same tier at their peak (22 Giannis vs 23 Jokić).

[rk2023]

I lean Jokic here. IMO, Giannis (21 or 22) is closer than most people realize. Agree with the two posters thus-far in that (1) they're ~T-15 peaks of all time, (2) they're ultimately a few spots within one another.

[SpreeS]

Giannis has clear edge on defence, but he needs good PG and 3P specialists to be successful on offensive end. Jokic is levels better on offence, he is spacer as big, playmaker and way more efficient scorer. Team defence is way more important than indv defence in these days, so I pick Jokic w/o thinking.

[One_and_Done]

Giannis relatively clearly.

[ShaqAttac]

everyone saying giannis like jok didn't just murder everyone for a chip

[rk2023]

everyone saying giannis like jok didn't just murder everyone for a chip

Well, I think the 22 Bucks could have done so before Middleton got hurt

[LukaTheGOAT]

Just to get it on record, I am going Jokic. He's a Magic-level or so offensive player, which I think can trump Giannis' 2-way impact.

Also I think I would have less durability concerns with Jokic over a long play-off run. I trust Giannis here but I trust Jokic more because his game is slower/more floor-bound.

[AussieBuck]

Giannis has clear edge on defence, but he needs good PG and 3P specialists to be successful on offensive end. Jokic is levels better on offence, he is spacer as big, playmaker and way more efficient scorer. Team defence is way more important than indv defence in these days, so I pick Jokic w/o thinking.

Giannis has been successful for a long time and never played with a good PG on O. What a bizarre argument. His pick and roll guy is a SF who can't dribble facing the basket.

[ShaqAttac]

Giannis has clear edge on defence, but he needs good PG and 3P specialists to be successful on offensive end. Jokic is levels better on offence, he is spacer as big, playmaker and way more efficient scorer. Team defence is way more important than indv defence in these days, so I pick Jokic w/o thinking.

Giannis has been successful for a long time and never played with a good PG on O. What a bizarre argument. His pick and roll guy is a SF who can't dribble facing the basket.

also how ppl keep saying d doesnt matter when the guys who lead defenses murk in impact

[SpreeS]

Giannis has clear edge on defence, but he needs good PG and 3P specialists to be successful on offensive end. Jokic is levels better on offence, he is spacer as big, playmaker and way more efficient scorer. Team defence is way more important than indv defence in these days, so I pick Jokic w/o thinking.

Giannis has been successful for a long time and never played with a good PG on O. What a bizarre argument. His pick and roll guy is a SF who can't dribble facing the basket.

Holiday is one of the best PG in league

PS (2021-2023)

Giannis + Holiday 4796min 120.3 ortg +11.2 nrtg
Holiday w/o Giannis 3067min 116.9 ortg +4.4 nrtg
Giannis w/o Holiday 2783min 114.2 ortg +2.2 nrtg

[AussieBuck]

Giannis has clear edge on defence, but he needs good PG and 3P specialists to be successful on offensive end. Jokic is levels better on offence, he is spacer as big, playmaker and way more efficient scorer. Team defence is way more important than indv defence in these days, so I pick Jokic w/o thinking.

Giannis has been successful for a long time and never played with a good PG on O. What a bizarre argument. His pick and roll guy is a SF who can't dribble facing the basket.

Holiday is one of the best PG in league

PS (2021-2023)

Giannis + Holiday 4796min 120.3 ortg +11.2 nrtg
Holiday w/o Giannis 3067min 116.9 ortg +4.4 nrtg
Giannis w/o Holiday 2783min 114.2 ortg +2.2 nrtg

Come on dude, tell us how Giannis is dependant on Holiday for his offence. Describe what it is this looks like in action.

[spree8]

I’m taking Joker without hesitation. It’s like he raises the 2k points of everyone he plays with +10. I trust him far more with the ball in his hands offensively and in clutch situations to make the best play. He’s dominant inside, a far better shooter, has GOAT level IQ, and is a good defender as well (despite not being as dominant as Giannis). Really can’t say enough about him, but yea, Joker by a mile.

[SpreeS]

Giannis has been successful for a long time and never played with a good PG on O. What a bizarre argument. His pick and roll guy is a SF who can't dribble facing the basket.

Holiday is one of the best PG in league

PS (2021-2023)

Giannis + Holiday 4796min 120.3 ortg +11.2 nrtg
Holiday w/o Giannis 3067min 116.9 ortg +4.4 nrtg
Giannis w/o Holiday 2783min 114.2 ortg +2.2 nrtg

Come on dude, tell us how Giannis is dependant on Holiday for his offence. Describe what it is this looks like in action.

quote from BR about 2021 Finals

Jrue Holiday finished the NBA Finals averaging 17 points, six rebounds, and nine assists per game. Not only that, he finished with the highest plus/minus of any player in the Finals with a combined +160. Despite being below his season average in scoring, he brought value on both ends of the court. The Bucks’ facilitator consistently found the weaknesses of the Phoenix Suns and was able to pick apart their defensive strategies. He specifically found those mismatches in the post.

Whether it was Giannis Antetokounmpo or Brook Lopez, Holiday was timely in his passes to allow for easy baskets before help arrived. Holiday primarily ran the offense and was able to find passing lanes to allow Giannis and the rest of Milwaukee’s frontcourt to take high percentage shots. In Game 5, Holiday finished with 13 assists. Game 5 was also Holiday’s best night on the offensive end, as he posted 27 points on 60% shooting from the field. Even in Holiday’s most productive night offensively, he still created opportunities for the rest of the Milwaukee Bucks to score.

Holiday’s ability to facilitate and locate the weaknesses in the Suns’ lineups was crucial. Locating mismatches, creating passing lanes, and getting the ball to each player in their preferred spot was a key to securing a championship. Even on his poor shooting nights, Holiday spread the floor and was a vocal leader in the Bucks offense. Without his impressive facilitating, Milwaukee would not be in this position.

Good example how does Jrue IQ impact Giannis and team offence

Watch on YouTube

[AussieBuck]

Holiday is one of the best PG in league

PS (2021-2023)

Giannis + Holiday 4796min 120.3 ortg +11.2 nrtg
Holiday w/o Giannis 3067min 116.9 ortg +4.4 nrtg
Giannis w/o Holiday 2783min 114.2 ortg +2.2 nrtg

Come on dude, tell us how Giannis is dependant on Holiday for his offence. Describe what it is this looks like in action.

quote from BR about 2021 Finals

Jrue Holiday finished the NBA Finals averaging 17 points, six rebounds, and nine assists per game. Not only that, he finished with the highest plus/minus of any player in the Finals with a combined +160. Despite being below his season average in scoring, he brought value on both ends of the court. The Bucks’ facilitator consistently found the weaknesses of the Phoenix Suns and was able to pick apart their defensive strategies. He specifically found those mismatches in the post.

Whether it was Giannis Antetokounmpo or Brook Lopez, Holiday was timely in his passes to allow for easy baskets before help arrived. Holiday primarily ran the offense and was able to find passing lanes to allow Giannis and the rest of Milwaukee’s frontcourt to take high percentage shots. In Game 5, Holiday finished with 13 assists. Game 5 was also Holiday’s best night on the offensive end, as he posted 27 points on 60% shooting from the field. Even in Holiday’s most productive night offensively, he still created opportunities for the rest of the Milwaukee Bucks to score.

Holiday’s ability to facilitate and locate the weaknesses in the Suns’ lineups was crucial. Locating mismatches, creating passing lanes, and getting the ball to each player in their preferred spot was a key to securing a championship. Even on his poor shooting nights, Holiday spread the floor and was a vocal leader in the Bucks offense. Without his impressive facilitating, Milwaukee would not be in this position.

Good example how does Jrue IQ impact Giannis and team offence

Watch on YouTube

Using playoff Jrue as evidence is cavalier at best. Fishing around for game 5 of the 2021 finals to use arguing with a Bucks fan is a real choice though. He went 4/20 and 4/19 either side of that game. Got a case of Giannis relying on him as per you original argument?

Honestly, this is peak internet. Giannis has never played off Jrue as a feature of the offence. Just digging for the sake of it. They have almost no real two-man interaction.

[Pelly24]

To me this is clearly Jokic. Jokic essentially always overperforms in the playoffs in a way that Giannis simply doesn't. He's like LeBron and MJ in that way, There's a general sense of inevitability offensively