How can Curry be rated higher than KMalone

[migya]

What reasoning? Obviously ignoring almost everything.

Longevity, no
Boxscore, no
Advanced stats, no - ws/48, OR/DR diff = Malone
on/off - RS Curry +1, PS Malone + 1.6, *Malone age 33-40 (misses most of his prime)

Curry's prime is really 2013 onwards, 702gm

[parsnips33]

Better player

[MyUniBroDavis]

What reasoning? Obviously ignoring almost everything.

Longevity, no
Boxscore, no
Advanced stats, no - ws/48, OR/DR diff = Malone
on/off - RS Curry +1, PS Malone + 1.6, *Malone age 33-40 (misses most of his prime)

Curry's prime is really 2013 onwards, 702gm

Stinky post right here

[rk2023]

What reasoning? Obviously ignoring almost everything.

Longevity, no
Boxscore, no
Advanced stats, no - ws/48, OR/DR diff = Malone
on/off - RS Curry +1, PS Malone + 1.6, *Malone age 33-40 (misses most of his prime)

Curry's prime is really 2013 onwards, 702gm

Team impact, yes
Grades in one number catch alls, yes
Not falling off a cliff in the PS, yes
Volume scoring, yes
Scalability, yes
Passing and playmaking, yes
Basketball IQ, yes
Being the unimpeachable #1 option on three title teams, bingo

As you said in that SkapAttack or whatever thread: Basketball is more than advanced stats

[Jaivl]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

Unfortunately for migya, being arrogant < impregnating children

Baiting/insulting. Warned. trex

[tsherkin]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

Unfortunately for migya, being arrogant < impregnating children

Guys, let's not. Stick with the content, yeah. It's rough enough that we don't need to be addressing that sort of stuff.

[Djoker]

I've had Curry ahead of Karl for a few years now. As others said, he's just a better player.

If you emphasize longevity (I don't) then Karl can certainly be ahead.

[lessthanjake]

Steph is pretty clearly the more impactful player. Malone’s on-off stats in the years that we have look pretty good, but he isn’t super high in RAPM, which suggests that his high on-off is at least in part caused by rotation strategies.

Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level. I think one could convince one’s self to rate Karl Malone higher if you really just put huge value on longevity, since obviously that’s an area where Karl Malone is almost unmatched in NBA history.

[Owly]

I mean, I try not to factor outside stuff on basketball discussion, but exerting this constant amount of energy on defending the honor of very probably **the literal worst person to ever grace an NBA court** is just weird, man. Find a better idol.

As for OP, I still have K. Malone ahead by a tiny bit. The case for Curry is obvious, though. Just a clearly better player.

Not to derail and I haven't looked into the Malone case details, so I just know the broad picture, I may have missed something ...

(and it doesn't alter the underlying point)

But given the strength of the starred claim ... there's so much that we don't and can't know so we're already pushing it with "very probably" ... and I'd be surprised if it was worse than what "Fast" Eddie Johnson (guard, primarily a Hawk, renowned for defense - i.e. not the other Eddie Johnson) did.


To main conversation, these things will always depend on criteria and personal perceptions but at first glance and the evidence offered didn't make me think such a conclusion would be absurd.

[tsherkin]

Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level.

Yeah, but Steph did also have more to work with than Malone in that respect. Scoring support in Utah during Malone's career was not amazing, particularly come the playoffs, and especially in the Finals. Steph didn't lack for team offense, most especially by comparison (even ignoring the KD titles). Stockton was solid in 97, but unable to offer dominant secondary scoring. Hornacek was unremarkable. Malone himself struggled in that first matchup. Come 98, Malone did well, but Stockton popped 9.7 ppg and Hornacek managed 10.7, both worse than the previous year. Meantime, Scottie scored 20 ppg in the 97 Finals, and in 98, Jordan had Scottie and Kukoc both posting 15 ppg.

I don't know how fervently I want to argue pro-Malone, if only because I'm a Steph fan, but explicitly look at team achievements, he did have some pretty good support. 2022 was the weakest in terms of team support, and they were still the best D in the league. O wasn't there in the RS with Klay and Draymond missing so much time, but Wiggins and Poole stepped up well enough against Boston and Klay was hitting 3s. But yeah, 2022 is maybe the best angle to argue what Steph achieved where Malone couldn't, perhaps. I dunno, but it's worth considering.

[parsnips33]

Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level.

Yeah, but Steph did also have more to work with than Malone in that respect. Scoring support in Utah during Malone's career was not amazing, particularly come the playoffs, and especially in the Finals. Steph didn't lack for team offense, most especially by comparison (even ignoring the KD titles). Stockton was solid in 97, but unable to offer dominant secondary scoring. Hornacek was unremarkable. Malone himself struggled in that first matchup. Come 98, Malone did well, but Stockton popped 9.7 ppg and Hornacek managed 10.7, both worse than the previous year. Meantime, Scottie scored 20 ppg in the 97 Finals, and in 98, Jordan had Scottie and Kukoc both posting 15 ppg.

I don't know how fervently I want to argue pro-Malone, if only because I'm a Steph fan, but explicitly look at team achievements, he did have some pretty good support. 2022 was the weakest in terms of team support, and they were still the best D in the league. O wasn't there in the RS with Klay and Draymond missing so much time, but Wiggins and Poole stepped up well enough against Boston and Klay was hitting 3s. But yeah, 2022 is maybe the best angle to argue what Steph achieved where Malone couldn't, perhaps. I dunno, but it's worth considering.

Is the 2015 supporting cast much better than what Malone was working with? Probably deeper, but anybody on the level of prime Stockton?

[lessthanjake]

Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level.

Yeah, but Steph did also have more to work with than Malone in that respect. Scoring support in Utah during Malone's career was not amazing, particularly come the playoffs, and especially in the Finals. Steph didn't lack for team offense, most especially by comparison (even ignoring the KD titles). Stockton was solid in 97, but unable to offer dominant secondary scoring. Hornacek was unremarkable. Malone himself struggled in that first matchup. Come 98, Malone did well, but Stockton popped 9.7 ppg and Hornacek managed 10.7, both worse than the previous year. Meantime, Scottie scored 20 ppg in the 97 Finals, and in 98, Jordan had Scottie and Kukoc both posting 15 ppg.

I don't know how fervently I want to argue pro-Malone, if only because I'm a Steph fan, but explicitly look at team achievements, he did have some pretty good support. 2022 was the weakest in terms of team support, and they were still the best D in the league. O wasn't there in the RS with Klay and Draymond missing so much time, but Wiggins and Poole stepped up well enough against Boston and Klay was hitting 3s. But yeah, 2022 is maybe the best angle to argue what Steph achieved where Malone couldn't, perhaps. I dunno, but it's worth considering.

Well, a couple things:

1. I think team achievements can and should influence a ranking of players, regardless of whether we think the difference in team achievements can be explained by different team contexts. The mere fact of winning titles makes someone a “greater” player IMO. Of course, reasonable minds can differ on this, but to me if there are two players that are equally good but one won titles and the other didn’t then I’d have no problem at all ranking the player that won titles higher in terms of greatness.

2. I’m not so sure Malone had less to work with (at least as compared to the non-KD Warriors). Stockton is an all-time great that Malone fit well with. Do we regard Draymond Green as better than John Stockton? Meanwhile, Hornacek was roughly at Klay’s level as a player. Heck, earlier in his career, Malone played with one of the top couple defenders of his era (Mark Eaton), while also having Stockton. Jeff Malone was also a good player he had for a while. I think there’s probably a decent argument in favor of the Warriors’ depth, but Malone had great players on his teams. The Durant Warriors were better than any Jazz team, but do we really think the 2015 Warriors or 2022 Warriors were more talented than any Jazz team? I don’t think so. I do think that a charitable reading of Malone’s career is that when his team was at its best they were just unfortunate to have that coincide with the second-three-peat Bulls. I don’t think the Warriors faced a team that good, so it’d be a fair point. But he did have a lot of years with Stockton, so their lack of success isn’t limited to just 1997 and 1998.

[tsherkin]

Is the 2015 supporting cast much better than what Malone was working with? Probably deeper, but anybody on the level of prime Stockton?

I'm of the opinion that stuff like RAPM overrates Stockton and that his lack of scoring punch was more problematic than his wonderful assist totals/averages. Certainly by the time they actually made the Finals, he wasn't stunning anyone, and outside of 91, he was a noticeable dropper. 88-98, he was a 55.4% 2FG guy in the RS, but 51.6% in the playoffs, and went from 39.4% 3P to 32.4%. He didn't bring a big-time scoring punch alongside Malone. And then it didn't much matter if you look at Jeff Malone or Hornacek, they weren't enough either. I think when you're looking at Draymond and Klay, that's already a better supporting cast than what Malone had, plus much more general depth than Utah enjoyed.

YMMV, of course. Malone made Utah considerably effective in the RS and in general, they did manage to make the conference Finals three times even apart from when they made the Finals. And they made the second round an additional 4 times, so like, the extended run of success he had was remarkable. 11 50+-win seasons, 3 at 60+. They were a monster squad in the 90s, and carried into the very early 2000s. That longevity is highly atypical, and born on the back of his immense durability, and Stockton scaling well into a role with fewer minutes, plus the way Sloan arranged the offense versus his era contemporaries, etc.

Food for thought, anyhow.

[parsnips33]

Is the 2015 supporting cast much better than what Malone was working with? Probably deeper, but anybody on the level of prime Stockton?

I'm of the opinion that stuff like RAPM overrates Stockton and that his lack of scoring punch was more problematic than his wonderful assist totals/averages. Certainly by the time they actually made the Finals, he wasn't stunning anyone, and outside of 91, he was a noticeable dropper. 88-98, he was a 55.4% 2FG guy in the RS, but 51.6% in the playoffs, and went from 39.4% 3P to 32.4%. He didn't bring a big-time scoring punch alongside Malone. And then it didn't much matter if you look at Jeff Malone or Hornacek, they weren't enough either. I think when you're looking at Draymond and Klay, that's already a better supporting cast than what Malone had, plus much more general depth than Utah enjoyed.

YMMV, of course. Malone made Utah considerably effective in the RS and in general, they did manage to make the conference Finals three times even apart from when they made the Finals. And they made the second round an additional 4 times, so like, the extended run of success he had was remarkable. 11 50+-win seasons, 3 at 60+. They were a monster squad in the 90s, and carried into the very early 2000s. That longevity is highly atypical, and born on the back of his immense durability, and Stockton scaling well into a role with fewer minutes, plus the way Sloan arranged the offense versus his era contemporaries, etc.

Food for thought, anyhow.

There is, I think, a similar limitation to the '15 supporting squad - instead of overall scoring punch, they were severely lacking in off-the-dribble shot creation outside of Steph. Best player at creating their own shot off the dribble was probably Livingston?

I think it's interesting to compare these two teams because they both won at elite levels for a long stretch by basically riding a super synergistic duo who joined to be more than the sum of their parts. And they both ran up against the best player of their generation multiple times in the Finals

[tsherkin]

There is, I think, a similar limitation to the '15 supporting squad - instead of overall scoring punch, they were severely lacking in off-the-dribble shot creation outside of Steph. Best player at creating their own shot off the dribble was probably Livingston?

I don't think it mattered as much as a result of their screen action and playmaking, to be honest, coupled to having Klay and Steph moving off-ball. You don't really need a bunch of iso ballers all over the place to attack defenses. Sloan's offense was a good, early example of that truth but the Warriors had a lot of offensive options even when the screen game was stalling out, so I don't personally find that quite equatable.

However, my point wasn't really to suggest that Malone achieved more so much as to undercut lessthanjake's remark: "Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level." Right?

I think that in context, you can argue that Steph achieved more: he certainly did actually win two titles even without KD, and the single-season wins record and two more titles with Durant, after all.

But it in my mind, it's not quite right to let that title bias get in the way when you look at the two teams and such.

[parsnips33]

There is, I think, a similar limitation to the '15 supporting squad - instead of overall scoring punch, they were severely lacking in off-the-dribble shot creation outside of Steph. Best player at creating their own shot off the dribble was probably Livingston?

I don't think it mattered as much as a result of their screen action and playmaking, to be honest, coupled to having Klay and Steph moving off-ball. You don't really need a bunch of iso ballers all over the place to attack defenses. Sloan's offense was a good, early example of that truth but the Warriors had a lot of offensive options even when the screen game was stalling out, so I don't personally find that quite equatable.

However, my point wasn't really to suggest that Malone achieved more so much as to undercut lessthanjake's remark: "Steph also has just achieved substantially more at a team level." Right?

I think that in context, you can argue that Steph achieved more: he certainly did actually win two titles even without KD, and the single-season wins record and two more titles with Durant, after all.

But it in my mind, it's not quite right to let that title bias get in the way when you look at the two teams and such.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's one-to-one necessarily, just that both casts had their limitations. Personally, I think the "achievement gap" is more a factor of the difference between Steph and Malone than in their respective supporting casts, but any analysis of team results necessitates that we look beyond just comparing individuals.

At the end of the day, very few players won as much as Karl Malone over the course of a career, even if he never won the big one

[tsherkin]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's one-to-one necessarily, just that both casts had their limitations. Personally, I think the "achievement gap" is more a factor of the difference between Steph and Malone than in their respective supporting casts, but any analysis of team results necessitates that we look beyond just comparing individuals.

At the end of the day, very few players won as much as Karl Malone over the course of a career, even if he never won the big one

That's kind of my point. I have big respect for Steph, for sure, but the comment I quoted felt a little too dismissive of Malone and what he and Utah achieved for me.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think its hard at all to see why and how people generally put Steph above Malone nowadays. I'd guess around 90% of people who care have him higher. The problem with Malone in all of these kinds of comparisons is that putting him higher requires some degree of sympathy for his playoff losses and his team's lack of depth and he is a very unsympathetic figure in general. It's not like DRob who generally does get more sympathy imo for his short prime and playoff criticisms(though getting two rings later does help). So that coupled with him being a very likeable player gets him a lot of top 15/20 talk. People pretty much go out of their way to hate Malone(perhaps rightfully so) and probably rank him lower as a result. I don't think anything we say on here is going to change that either.

[lessthanjake]

Yeah, I'm not saying it's one-to-one necessarily, just that both casts had their limitations. Personally, I think the "achievement gap" is more a factor of the difference between Steph and Malone than in their respective supporting casts, but any analysis of team results necessitates that we look beyond just comparing individuals.

At the end of the day, very few players won as much as Karl Malone over the course of a career, even if he never won the big one

That's kind of my point. I have big respect for Steph, for sure, but the comment I quoted felt a little too dismissive of Malone and what he and Utah achieved for me.

I don’t think it was dismissive of Karl Malone to say that Steph Curry achieved substantially more at a team level. Steph has won 4 titles and Karl Malone won 0. Like, just at a very basic level, Steph clearly achieved a lot more at a team level. One can aim to add context to try to explain that maybe that doesn’t mean Steph was better. But Steph *did* achieve more at a team level. I feel like even Karl Malone himself would agree with that statement.

And, I think on the question of whether I’m being dismissive of Karl Malone’s team success, it’s perhaps worth noting that just two days ago I made multiple posts in the most recent Top 100 thread specifically praising the team success that Karl Malone had. See https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107965314#p107965314 and https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107965410#p107965410. I’m definitely not dismissive of his team success. I just was pointing out the pretty objective truth that he had less of it than Steph Curry.