Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Who would you rather build a team around?
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
I prefer Harden's shot creation and scoring profile over the two-way player of Tatum at this point.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
I suspect now Harden’s peak will be even more underrated retrospectively than it was in real time. At his peak he was as unstoppable a scorer/offensive producer as we’ve seen in modern times. But there is a philosophical argument for a 2-way stud, I just think that matters less for non 5’s because the wake is so much smaller. But it’s enough room for people to go where they’d prefer to go, often for non-basketball reasons, imo.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Well, I suppose Tatum could age better, but in terms of just pure peak play, I feel confident in saying Harden has reached a higher level.
From 19-21 in the PS, James Harden averaged an
Adjusted 27.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.1%)
PS PlayVal-1.8, About 12.5 shots created every 100 possessions
Backpicks BPM-7.3
BPM-8.8
Minutes Weighted EPM (Goes Back to 2018 for the PS)-7.6
Minutes Weighted RAPTOR-9.9
Now, if you look at Tatum's peaks SINGLE YEAR PS Peaks in each of the following metrics:
Backpicks BPM-6.8
BPPM-6.5
Minutes Weighted EPM-4.4
RAPTOR-6.6
From 21-23, Tatum has averaged a little over 25 pts per 75 possessions on around league average efficiency. Harden is also His PlayVal peaked at 0.8 in this past PS. So one could say Harden's playmaking value over doubles Tatum's playmaking impact.
Harden played at a higher level on average during his 3-year peak, than Tatum has ever done during any single PS.
I do believe Tatum is an all-nba level defender. However, I think that would only swing his overall value by about +1 in per game impact. I think Harden having perhaps a +1 value advantage in just playmaking impact over Tatum, would make things for an interesting comparison. However, Harden being the scorer he is, definitively swings things his way.
I suppose besides potential longevity, intangibles, and factors such as, how easy it is to please could play a role in who you pick, however I don't have much insight on that. Strictly speaking in terms of peaks, I believe Harden is ahead of Tatum.
From 19-21 in the PS, James Harden averaged an
Adjusted 27.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.1%)
PS PlayVal-1.8, About 12.5 shots created every 100 possessions
Backpicks BPM-7.3
BPM-8.8
Minutes Weighted EPM (Goes Back to 2018 for the PS)-7.6
Minutes Weighted RAPTOR-9.9
Now, if you look at Tatum's peaks SINGLE YEAR PS Peaks in each of the following metrics:
Backpicks BPM-6.8
BPPM-6.5
Minutes Weighted EPM-4.4
RAPTOR-6.6
From 21-23, Tatum has averaged a little over 25 pts per 75 possessions on around league average efficiency. Harden is also His PlayVal peaked at 0.8 in this past PS. So one could say Harden's playmaking value over doubles Tatum's playmaking impact.
Harden played at a higher level on average during his 3-year peak, than Tatum has ever done during any single PS.
I do believe Tatum is an all-nba level defender. However, I think that would only swing his overall value by about +1 in per game impact. I think Harden having perhaps a +1 value advantage in just playmaking impact over Tatum, would make things for an interesting comparison. However, Harden being the scorer he is, definitively swings things his way.
I suppose besides potential longevity, intangibles, and factors such as, how easy it is to please could play a role in who you pick, however I don't have much insight on that. Strictly speaking in terms of peaks, I believe Harden is ahead of Tatum.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Harden, not close.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Disrespectful to Harden. He gets overrated when people try to compare him to D-Wade, but his peaks clears Tatum. Tatum is starting to get wildly overrated.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
rate_ wrote:Disrespectful to Harden. He gets overrated when people try to compare him to D-Wade, but his peaks clears Tatum. Tatum is starting to get wildly overrated.
1. All of Harden "longevity" is actually from this era. Inflated era.
2. Wade was clearly better at peak, prime ect. Its not so close actually. Even if we assume that Harden at his peak and prime (2015-20) was 95% as good as Wade (2005-11), which I dont think is the case, 90% more likely, I dont think its enough for Harden to surpass Wade with 2021-23 "longevity" in the inflated era. And this assuming we take additive approach, which I dont use in GOAT conversations, because In this case Reggie also is better than Harden and Wade.
I like holistic approach, where Peak and prime weighted significantly more than longevity without titles, much impact and in the inflated era. Basically who was the best at their best, when they "dominated" the league.
This board consists of huge amount of Harden fanboys, its obvious (you are not one of them), so its nonsentical to talk with them, its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who is the 4th best SG. And its not HarChoke.
Casual:
https://clutchpoints.com/nba-news-stephen-a-smith-claims-dwyane-wade-better-than-james-harden
Analytics:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2219689
A curtain!
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Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
remember in 2021 when harden tore his hamstring 40 seconds into the milwaukee series and then played about 45% of his playoff minutes on that torn hamstring, massively pulling down his numbers? well here's how that compares to tatum last year (which is his career high for a multi-series playoffs in PER/WS48/TS%):
PER
Tatum - 22.6
Harden - 23.9 (+1.3)
TS%
Tatum - 58.5%
Harden - 67.3% (+8.8%)
WS48
Tatum - 0.168
Harden - 0.263 (+0.095, well over 50% higher)
BPM
Tatum - 5.3 (career high for multi-series - 6.3)
Harden - 9.1 (+3.8, well over 50% higher)
but ok, harden was so good in the 1st round that he ended up with career highs in some of these numbers. so we can go back to 2020, when harden faced #7 defense OKC with lu dort emerging as a defensive star and then faced the lakers 2020 playoff defense:
PER
Tatum - 22.6
Harden - 27.5 (+4.9)
TS%
Tatum - 58.5%
Harden - 63.6% (+5.1%)
WS48
Tatum - 0.168
Harden - 0.253 (+0.085, right at 50% higher)
BPM
Tatum - 5.3 (career high for multi-series - 6.3)
Harden - 9.4 (+3.8, almost 50% higher than even tatum's career high)
there's 2019 where harden's 25.2/56.7/0.189/8.1 would clear in all but TS% (but would be basically tied when accounting for league environment).
2018 harden faces the #1 regular season defense (utah) and #1 playoff defense (golden state) and the warriors being so good wrecks his WS48 and yet his 25.2/54.8/0.163/8.1 still clears in PER and BPM and basically ties in WS48.
and of course we can even go back to 2015 where harden's 24.8/62.0/0.202/7.6 handily clears tatum's career high in every stat.
all told, seasons where harden had a playoff run above tatum's career high:
PER - 6
TS% - 6 with 3 others tied (58.3%, 58.4%, 58.4% compared to 58.5% and 2 of those would jump above based on league environment)
WS48 - 7 (includes all 3 OKC seasons)
BPM - 7 consecutive seasons from 2015 to 2021
doesn't seem all that close.
PER
Tatum - 22.6
Harden - 23.9 (+1.3)
TS%
Tatum - 58.5%
Harden - 67.3% (+8.8%)
WS48
Tatum - 0.168
Harden - 0.263 (+0.095, well over 50% higher)
BPM
Tatum - 5.3 (career high for multi-series - 6.3)
Harden - 9.1 (+3.8, well over 50% higher)
but ok, harden was so good in the 1st round that he ended up with career highs in some of these numbers. so we can go back to 2020, when harden faced #7 defense OKC with lu dort emerging as a defensive star and then faced the lakers 2020 playoff defense:
PER
Tatum - 22.6
Harden - 27.5 (+4.9)
TS%
Tatum - 58.5%
Harden - 63.6% (+5.1%)
WS48
Tatum - 0.168
Harden - 0.253 (+0.085, right at 50% higher)
BPM
Tatum - 5.3 (career high for multi-series - 6.3)
Harden - 9.4 (+3.8, almost 50% higher than even tatum's career high)
there's 2019 where harden's 25.2/56.7/0.189/8.1 would clear in all but TS% (but would be basically tied when accounting for league environment).
2018 harden faces the #1 regular season defense (utah) and #1 playoff defense (golden state) and the warriors being so good wrecks his WS48 and yet his 25.2/54.8/0.163/8.1 still clears in PER and BPM and basically ties in WS48.
and of course we can even go back to 2015 where harden's 24.8/62.0/0.202/7.6 handily clears tatum's career high in every stat.
all told, seasons where harden had a playoff run above tatum's career high:
PER - 6
TS% - 6 with 3 others tied (58.3%, 58.4%, 58.4% compared to 58.5% and 2 of those would jump above based on league environment)
WS48 - 7 (includes all 3 OKC seasons)
BPM - 7 consecutive seasons from 2015 to 2021
doesn't seem all that close.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Tatum's style is easier to "insert" on high-level teams, due to his off-ball play and defensive prowess, relative to Harden who probably would see his impact decline a noticeable amount, but I don't think this overcomes the galaxy-sized shot-creation/"engine" gap. 19-20 Harden (even 21 when healthy) might be one of the 10 or so best offensive centerpieces of the modern era (post 1980). And I don't view his defense as anything too destructive those years, ranging from a neutral to minor negative. In essence, Harden's one-way impact >> Tatum's two-way impact, and building around an all-time offensive centerpiece is probably easier for the current era than doing such around a two-way star.
pretty confident in Harden.
pretty confident in Harden.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
It's a good question because it presents a clearly more dominant individual player against a more portable two way player who although lesser individual impact presents an easier build and many intangible factors that are gained from it.
Statistical argument is open and shut for Harden.
In terms of a team build, if the right build is there (shooters and solid off ball roll options) then the peaks for Harden are much higher. You are however resigned to playing a certain style, noting peak Houston Harden was not at the point where he would compromise role or touches in the way he did with Nets/76ers (which feels very ironic given how both those situations played out).
I'd go with peak Harden, but I could understand an argument revolving around the idea of 'less is more' for Tatum
Statistical argument is open and shut for Harden.
In terms of a team build, if the right build is there (shooters and solid off ball roll options) then the peaks for Harden are much higher. You are however resigned to playing a certain style, noting peak Houston Harden was not at the point where he would compromise role or touches in the way he did with Nets/76ers (which feels very ironic given how both those situations played out).
I'd go with peak Harden, but I could understand an argument revolving around the idea of 'less is more' for Tatum
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Of cause Tatum, b/c its way easier to build champion team around him than Harden. And I don’t care about all these numbers.
Tatum at 25 age has already played in 4 CF and 1 Finals as lead dog. Harden…..
Strip clubs, conflicts with teammates, weight gains, trade requests….I dont need this stuff if I am GM or team owner.
Tatum at 25 age has already played in 4 CF and 1 Finals as lead dog. Harden…..
Strip clubs, conflicts with teammates, weight gains, trade requests….I dont need this stuff if I am GM or team owner.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Harden peaked higher offensively for sure. Harden very clearly has the talent to be the #1 on a championship squad, while for Tatum it is debatable (though Tatum is a 2-way player and can play alongside anyone easier). However, Harden's playstyle (very ISO heavy, even off P&R it was just to switch to the right matchup) is not playoff resilient. It is easy to gameplan for an ISO heavy offense, and Harden has established that he has very little off-ball value. He stands at the 3pt line and doesn't move.
So while you could potentially have a more devastating team with Harden if you could find the right coach and star pairing, I think Tatum is the safer pick.
So while you could potentially have a more devastating team with Harden if you could find the right coach and star pairing, I think Tatum is the safer pick.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Tatum isn't anything close to the playmaker Harden was. That alone makes for a large gap.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Harden is a level above.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
I have to take Harden here. I like defense and I like Tatum's attitude better and stuff, but Harden was a monster in his heyday.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
JimmyFromNz wrote:It's a good question because it presents a clearly more dominant individual player against a more portable two way player who although lesser individual impact presents an easier build and many intangible factors that are gained from it.
Statistical argument is open and shut for Harden.
In terms of a team build, if the right build is there (shooters and solid off ball roll options) then the peaks for Harden are much higher. You are however resigned to playing a certain style, noting peak Houston Harden was not at the point where he would compromise role or touches in the way he did with Nets/76ers (which feels very ironic given how both those situations played out).
I'd go with peak Harden, but I could understand an argument revolving around the idea of 'less is more' for Tatum
Oddly those intangible factors did not stop Harden from leading better teams. And somehow I imagine there are intangible factors in the other direction too...
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
OhayoKD wrote:JimmyFromNz wrote:It's a good question because it presents a clearly more dominant individual player against a more portable two way player who although lesser individual impact presents an easier build and many intangible factors that are gained from it.
Statistical argument is open and shut for Harden.
In terms of a team build, if the right build is there (shooters and solid off ball roll options) then the peaks for Harden are much higher. You are however resigned to playing a certain style, noting peak Houston Harden was not at the point where he would compromise role or touches in the way he did with Nets/76ers (which feels very ironic given how both those situations played out).
I'd go with peak Harden, but I could understand an argument revolving around the idea of 'less is more' for Tatum
Oddly those intangible factors did not stop Harden from leading better teams. And somehow I imagine there are intangible factors in the other direction too...
Are we sure ? Where were they lead ? Conference finals? Jayson already has gone further with far more flexibility available in the blueprint.
The publicly giving up on 3 teams is more pertinent to me, or the historic underperfomances in the playoffs, or the notable lack of leadership/chemistry he has with anyone that isn't setting a screen and roll for him or standing still in a corner. Jayson has had his growing pains, and although a different archetype, he's largely a positive in all of these areas if building a team environment that has the best chance of being cohesive.
For the record I go with peak Harden, his offensive impact is near unrivalled, but in the context of the team questiom, ithink its a very fair point to consider.
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
JimmyFromNz wrote:OhayoKD wrote:JimmyFromNz wrote:It's a good question because it presents a clearly more dominant individual player against a more portable two way player who although lesser individual impact presents an easier build and many intangible factors that are gained from it.
Statistical argument is open and shut for Harden.
In terms of a team build, if the right build is there (shooters and solid off ball roll options) then the peaks for Harden are much higher. You are however resigned to playing a certain style, noting peak Houston Harden was not at the point where he would compromise role or touches in the way he did with Nets/76ers (which feels very ironic given how both those situations played out).
I'd go with peak Harden, but I could understand an argument revolving around the idea of 'less is more' for Tatum
Oddly those intangible factors did not stop Harden from leading better teams. And somehow I imagine there are intangible factors in the other direction too...
Are we sure ? Where were they lead ? Conference finals? Jayson already has gone further with far more flexibility available in the blueprint.
The publicly giving up on 3 teams is more pertinent to me...
For the record I go with peak Harden, but I think its a very fair point.
Tbh this is fair the hardens trade bag is the deepest in the nba
Fat suit goes crazy
Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Prime/Peak Harden is far better than current Tatum, man. Like, aside from 2018 and 2012 OKC, Harden never played with a team close to as good as the Celtics. 2k19 harden gets past the heat pretty easily this year, or 6 games I think
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Re: Start a team from: Jayson Tatum vs peak James Harden
Pelly24 wrote:Prime/Peak Harden is far better than current Tatum, man. Like, aside from 2018 and 2012 OKC, Harden never played with a team close to as good as the Celtics. 2k19 harden gets past the heat pretty easily this year, or 6 games I think
I dont think anyone disagrees with the bolded. It's not the question though.
The question becomes much closer when considering 'starting a team'.
Harden didn't wither away on bad teams, they were purpose built with long perimeter shooters and roll men to complement his skillset. Then in addition Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook (who remained very good players at that point) came and went following cohesion issues. It's the heliocentrism in today's game that we are now starting to resent with players like Trae and Luka.