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Whose a better defender at the PG position of the two? Turns out it’s a pretty contentious question

Caruso.

Smart is certainly a good defender, but I think he is a little overrated. I don't think he is quite as good as advertised when actually out defending a ball-handling guard in space. What makes Smart good is his switchability that allows him to guard bigs in the post if necessary.

I think Smart is easily the better defender.

The whole "Smart isn't that good at guarding smaller guards in space" which is a common thing I see in comparisons are two things

1) Not really true. He guards faster players just as well as any other all-defensive guard.

2) Not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Good, quick, guards will get past people with a pick, what defenses do afterward are way more important and Smart does a lot.

big switchable guards are going to have more impact on average as they are basically smaller versions of big switchable wings. and big switchable wings are smaller versions of switchable bigs. and big men will always be the most impactful defenders, always have been, always will be. size just matters in this sport. rim protection and rebounding are the most valuable defensive traits.

I love caruso's game and every team wants a guy like him to just hound the point of attack relentlessly but in terms of overall impact the bigger guys are likely to affect more possessions each game.

HeartBreakKid wrote:I think Smart is easily the better defender.

The whole "Smart isn't that good at guarding smaller guards in space" which is a common thing I see in comparisons are two things

1) Not really true. He guards faster players just as well as any other all-defensive guard.

2) Not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Good, quick, guards will get past people with a pick, what defenses do afterward are way more important and Smart does a lot.

Seems like Caruso kinda does a lot too, no? I mean, last season he avg [per 100] 3.0 stl and 1.4 blk. For reference, Dwyane Wade from '07-'12 avg 2.6 and 1.6 (Smart in the last two seasons 2.5 and 0.5, fwiw). Caruso's probably a marginally better rebounding guard than Smart too (little less than Wade though).

Smart does an awful lot of quarterbacking, too, though, I guess. And he's on the court more, fwiw. Anyway, just thinking out loud.....

Maybe the biggest driver of guard defense is forcing turnovers and Caruso is #1 in 3 year regularized adjusted defensive turnover rate. Smart is 32nd. By 3 year D-Lebron Caruso sits at 2.4 to Smart’s .84. Caruso 5th in DARKO D-DPM at 2.4 with Smart at 1. Don’t really think it should be controversial to think that Caruso is a better defender but Smart does have more offensive responsibilities and plays more so if he could focus more energy towards defense his impact metrics might be comparable.

trex_8063 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:I think Smart is easily the better defender.

The whole "Smart isn't that good at guarding smaller guards in space" which is a common thing I see in comparisons are two things

1) Not really true. He guards faster players just as well as any other all-defensive guard.

2) Not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Good, quick, guards will get past people with a pick, what defenses do afterward are way more important and Smart does a lot.

Seems like Caruso kinda does a lot too, no? I mean, last season he avg [per 100] 3.0 stl and 1.4 blk. For reference, Dwyane Wade from '07-'12 avg 2.6 and 1.6 (Smart in the last two seasons 2.5 and 0.5, fwiw). Caruso's probably a marginally better rebounding guard than Smart too (little less than Wade though).

Smart does an awful lot of quarterbacking, too, though, I guess. And he's on the court more, fwiw. Anyway, just thinking out loud.....

Yes, Caruso does. Just saying that Marcus Smart getting bumped for the aesthetics of his athleticism has never been a great criticism of his defense. That type of thinking is what made Avery Bradley > Marcus Smart on defense a mainstream opinion many moons ago.

I think in terms of help defense they're both great. I think where Smart might get separation is how they deal with switches.

trex_8063 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:I think Smart is easily the better defender.

The whole "Smart isn't that good at guarding smaller guards in space" which is a common thing I see in comparisons are two things

1) Not really true. He guards faster players just as well as any other all-defensive guard.

2) Not really that important in the grand scheme of things. Good, quick, guards will get past people with a pick, what defenses do afterward are way more important and Smart does a lot.

Seems like Caruso kinda does a lot too, no? I mean, last season he avg [per 100] 3.0 stl and 1.4 blk. For reference, Dwyane Wade from '07-'12 avg 2.6 and 1.6 (Smart in the last two seasons 2.5 and 0.5, fwiw). Caruso's probably a marginally better rebounding guard than Smart too (little less than Wade though).

Smart does an awful lot of quarterbacking, too, though, I guess. And he's on the court more, fwiw. Anyway, just thinking out loud.....

I have a feeling quarterbacking might just be the most valuable thing a guard can do on that end. Of course that take is somewhat based on Chris Paul's seemingly outsized defensive impact, and Caruso tops Smart in such signals iirc

MrVorp wrote:Maybe the biggest driver of guard defense is forcing turnovers and Caruso is #1 in 3 year regularized adjusted defensive turnover rate. Smart is 32nd. By 3 year D-Lebron Caruso sits at 2.4 to Smart’s .84. Caruso 5th in DARKO D-DPM at 2.4 with Smart at 1. Don’t really think it should be controversial to think that Caruso is a better defender but Smart does have more offensive responsibilities and plays more so if he could focus more energy towards defense his impact metrics might be comparable.

Yet steals don't seem to correlate much with team-defense...

OhayoKD wrote:

MrVorp wrote:Maybe the biggest driver of guard defense is forcing turnovers and Caruso is #1 in 3 year regularized adjusted defensive turnover rate. Smart is 32nd. By 3 year D-Lebron Caruso sits at 2.4 to Smart’s .84. Caruso 5th in DARKO D-DPM at 2.4 with Smart at 1. Don’t really think it should be controversial to think that Caruso is a better defender but Smart does have more offensive responsibilities and plays more so if he could focus more energy towards defense his impact metrics might be comparable.

Yet steals don't seem to correlate much with team-defense...

Steals at the team or individual level? If I’m not mistaken assists at the team level don’t correlate much with team offense but obviously at the individual level they correlate with offensive impact. As for the individual level, in basically any statistical plus minus steals have a pretty large positive coefficient in predicting DRAPM. Obviously lots of steals does not always mean good defender but a correlation between the two exist. Anyways I wasn’t necessarily even talking about steals specifically, but forcing any type of turnover in general.

On a per-possession basis I might go Caruso. However, in terms of per-game impact, peak Smart might be the answer. He plays notably more minutes per game than Caruso.

MrVorp wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

MrVorp wrote:Maybe the biggest driver of guard defense is forcing turnovers and Caruso is #1 in 3 year regularized adjusted defensive turnover rate. Smart is 32nd. By 3 year D-Lebron Caruso sits at 2.4 to Smart’s .84. Caruso 5th in DARKO D-DPM at 2.4 with Smart at 1. Don’t really think it should be controversial to think that Caruso is a better defender but Smart does have more offensive responsibilities and plays more so if he could focus more energy towards defense his impact metrics might be comparable.

Yet steals don't seem to correlate much with team-defense...

Steals at the team or individual level? If I’m not mistaken assists at the team level don’t correlate much with team offense but obviously at the individual level they correlate with offensive impact. As for the individual level, in basically any statistical plus minus steals have a pretty large positive coefficient in predicting DRAPM. Obviously lots of steals does not always mean good defender but a correlation between the two exist. Anyways I wasn’t necessarily even talking about steals specifically, but forcing any type of turnover in general.

Steals correlate at an individual level, I think it’s more so there are players who just gamble though which tends to make people think it isn’t as good of a sign as it is

Don’t think either of the above are like that though

I think I've actually become dumber reading this thread. Sometimes I don't know why I even bother trying to have an actual basketball conversation here.

kendogg wrote:I think I've actually become dumber reading this thread. Sometimes I don't know why I even bother trying to have an actual basketball conversation here.

There are a lot dumber conversations than this one lol, the if steals are good debate going on is pretty stupid though

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

kendogg wrote:I think I've actually become dumber reading this thread. Sometimes I don't know why I even bother trying to have an actual basketball conversation here.

There are a lot dumber conversations than this one lol, the if steals are good debate going on is pretty stupid though

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

MrVorp wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:Yet steals don't seem to correlate much with team-defense...

Steals at the team or individual level? If I’m not mistaken assists at the team level don’t correlate much with team offense but obviously at the individual level they correlate with offensive impact. As for the individual level, in basically any statistical plus minus steals have a pretty large positive coefficient in predicting DRAPM. Obviously lots of steals does not always mean good defender but a correlation between the two exist. Anyways I wasn’t necessarily even talking about steals specifically, but forcing any type of turnover in general.

Steals correlate at an individual level, I think it’s more so there are players who just gamble though which tends to make people think it isn’t as good of a sign as it is

Don’t think either of the above are like that though

They correlate well relative to other defensive box-stats and that might just be on a per-rate basis. IOW, them "doing well" doesn't really mean anything, and doesn't stop them from being poor proxies of defensive quality which...

...they are