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I won't get into to much detail, but I often find that people agree that MJ was the better individual player at both of their best, but I kind of have a counter to that: MJ might be more likely to win you a series with evenly matched teams and a solid supporting cast, but because of his legit big man size (6'8" 250), LeBron is the better floor-raiser because he play every position and has the actual size to do certain tasks MJ can't do. This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ. MJ might win the 2014 series against the spurts, but then again, he quite possibly doesn't get to the finals in the first place that year, same with 2015.

Pelly24 wrote:I won't get into to much detail, but I often find that people agree that MJ was the better individual player at both of their best, but I kind of have a counter to that: MJ might be more likely to win you a series with evenly matched teams and a solid supporting cast, but because of his legit big man size (6'8" 250), LeBron is the better floor-raiser because he play every position and has the actual size to do certain tasks MJ can't do. This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ. MJ might win the 2014 series against the spurts, but then again, he quite possibly doesn't get to the finals in the first place that year, same with 2015.

It’s probably a 60-40 split on whose peak people have higher, The idea of floor raising and ceiling raising has some validity but the argument for Jordan being a better ceiling raiser than Bron based on their play styles doesn’t really make any sense lol

Mj would not have won in 2014 against the Spurs, they went crazy that year, although bron wasn’t as good as his numbers show that series I think, still great though

Wonder how this thread is going to end up

Respectfully, there is no argument for me here. MJ was the greater player. Throughout the history of the game there have been players of LBJ's size and caliber, although LBJ is the greater overall player. But the size argument only goes so far with me, especially, when you see that MJ never shied away from attacking the paint. Obviously, era differences & rules, but I think the major difference here in eye-test and opportunity is the evolution of the point-forward and the perceived greater impact based on positional advantages.

The Magic/Bird era really started the swing moving from the 'big man's game and MJ really took it to the next level. Like you see now with Steph and how most centers don't play like Shaq, it's simply era creation and it also depends on who happens to be the 'top tier talent' in the game at that time. Example - if a KAJ talent came into the league which saw major individual and team success, everyone from grade 8 and on would now be focusing on playing like that.

MJ was wired as an O-anchor first but could also be your teams best defender as well. He also backed this up for most of his career. If he was given the green light and wanted to put up a stat line like Russell Westbrook, I have no reason to believe he couldn't do this. For his position he was a great rebounder and assist maker, but he's stated many times, even before winning a single chip that he didn't really care about all of that as he truly cared about winning and team success.

LBJ, like T-Mac, Penny, Grant Hill etc, evolved the position even further and unlike those 3, not only did LBJ have a greater overall skillset, he's never had an unlucky injury throughout his entire prime career. But without using hypothecticals or data compared over two completely different era's and competition, MJ demonstrated that size didn't matter and even if you could slow him down, he'd find a way to win. When you have all-time great athletes so close to each other, it's not like you're disappointed if you received the other player for your team and in a 'what if' scenario, you can always try to debate how one would do in the others shoes etc. In my eyes though, for being as great, and as high on the all-time list, LBJ has the poorest performances versus MJ and that is why and how I make my selection. Change this, replace that, etc, their careers have happened, and the evolution of T/A in basketball doesn't change how each player acted and performed on the court in the same moments in different eras.

Yeah, Thinking Basketball has echoed similar sentiments

https://youtu.be/FzzlvnncLOQ?si=HZyuuBq6CP0-DVJc

This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ.

Over those two seasons, 2008-09 and 2009-10, Cleveland won the most games (127), had the highest average per game point differential (+7.7 pts/g), was the 3rd best team in offensive efficiency (110.6 pts/100poss scored), and the 3rd best team in defensive efficiency (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). On defense they allowed the second lowest 2pt FG% (46.5%), grabbed the second most defensive rebounds (35.1 defreb/100poss), allowed the fewest points per game (93.5 pts/g).

James played just 1/7 to 1/6 of their total minutes over those two seasons. So obviously someone else - several someone else's - were also very good on both offense and defense those two years.

Perhaps you should reconsider your characterization of that Cleveland team rather than obfuscate the facts to make your point.

kcktiny wrote:

This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ.

Over those two seasons, 2008-09 and 2009-10, Cleveland won the most games (127), had the highest average per game point differential (+7.7 pts/g), was the 3rd best team in offensive efficiency (110.6 pts/100poss scored), and the 3rd best team in defensive efficiency (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). On defense they allowed the second lowest 2pt FG% (46.5%), grabbed the second most defensive rebounds (35.1 defreb/100poss), allowed the fewest points per game (93.5 pts/g).

James played just 1/7 to 1/6 of their total minutes over those two seasons. So obviously someone else - several someone else's - were also very good on both offense and defense those two years.

Perhaps you should reconsider your characterization of that Cleveland team rather than obfuscate the facts to make your point.

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons with +21 and +17 on/off and was by far their best player on offense AND defense. Not to mention they lost 6 out of 7 game he didn't play.

MacGill wrote:but could also be your teams best defender as well.

If Jordan is your team's best defender, your defense isn't very good. At his peak Jordan was a great guard defender, but he was never the best defender on his own team when they had good ones.

CzBoobie wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ.

Over those two seasons, 2008-09 and 2009-10, Cleveland won the most games (127), had the highest average per game point differential (+7.7 pts/g), was the 3rd best team in offensive efficiency (110.6 pts/100poss scored), and the 3rd best team in defensive efficiency (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). On defense they allowed the second lowest 2pt FG% (46.5%), grabbed the second most defensive rebounds (35.1 defreb/100poss), allowed the fewest points per game (93.5 pts/g).

James played just 1/7 to 1/6 of their total minutes over those two seasons. So obviously someone else - several someone else's - were also very good on both offense and defense those two years.

Perhaps you should reconsider your characterization of that Cleveland team rather than obfuscate the facts to make your point.

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons with +21 and +17 on/off and was by far their best player on offense AND defense. Not to mention they lost 6 out of 7 game he didn't play.

The Cavs in 2009 and then in 2010 did nothing without James and then fell epically apart in 2011 after James left.



If you’re looking at just 2009:

without Ben Wallace, 1,802 minutes, +12.03
without Gibson, 2,003 minutes, +13.43
without Mo Williams, 836 minutes, +13.46
without West, 1,025 minutes, +14.21
without Illgauskas, 1,547 minutes, +14.45
without Szczerbiak, 2,151 minutes, +15.39
without Andy V., 1,195 minutes, +17.13

This is just absolutely wild. You can do this with 3 man, 4 man, 5 man lineups as well and anything that has decent minutes (e.g., 200+ or even 100+), the lineups fall apart without James.

Then the Cavs fell apart without James:



Before the “injuries in 2011” claims, look at the bottom right of that chart with 21 games of health. Or the following:



2010-2011 Cavs

21 game sample with mostly same players: 19 win pace

Andy V: -9.0 ON, +.5 ON/OFF, 8-23 in games played, 19 win pace
Mo Williams: -13.9 ON, -4.4 ON/OFF, 9-28, 20 win pace

Mo Williams + Andy V.: 27 games played, -9.5, 6-21, 18 win pace

The individual records for mo and varejao don’t show a pattern either

Varejao
8-23

Mo
8-28

With both
6-21

On offs can’t be used like that because rotations and stuff, and can’t be compared to whole team lineups.

Delonte west in 2010 had his worst 3 point shooting year with the cavs, ilgauskas retired a year later, and this was Shaqs second last year. It’s hard to see any of them as difference makers by this point, and the cavs record was identical in the time each of them missed

(with west they won at a 70 win pace without him, without ilgauskas they won at a 64 win pace, without shaq they were at a 59 win pace, a caveat for shaq specifically that 6 of the games lebron missed were games shaq missed too, take those out and they win at a 68 win pace without shaq)

Samples are 22, 18, and 29 (23 if we take out bron games) respectively

I think we have a fairly decent sample of the team without lebron with a similar spine, and in the 30 or so games Parker/varejao/hickson/Jamison/Williams played together, we have a 23 game sample, where they went
4-19

Varejao is the only person where they have a higher than 20 win pace (21), and even then it should be noted they won on average by 5.6 points (and all of them were less than 10 point wins) whereas their losses were on average by 13.7 points (so they lost by 8.7ppg) which does fit a sub 20 win pace

I don’t really see how they can be seen as anything more than a 20 win team based off of that, the players they lost outside of lebron weren’t really contributors, and while healthy we have more than a 20 game sample of them playing like a 20 win team (and in itself that sample should be compared to the cavs team when they were healthy, and when lebron played they won at a 65 win pace).

Pelly24 wrote:I won't get into to much detail, but I often find that people agree that MJ was the better individual player at both of their best, but I kind of have a counter to that: MJ might be more likely to win you a series with evenly matched teams and a solid supporting cast, but because of his legit big man size (6'8" 250), LeBron is the better floor-raiser because he play every position and has the actual size to do certain tasks MJ can't do. This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ. MJ might win the 2014 series against the spurts, but then again, he quite possibly doesn't get to the finals in the first place that year, same with 2015.

how is mj beatin the spurs?

this aint 2022. u can just say brons better. bro beat a 73 win team with less and is way better at d.

It’s crazy because MJ was a bit more consistent. But you can argue LeBron peaked higher in MANY areas

Overall Regular season peak - 2009

Overall playoff peak -2009, 2017 , 2018?

Offensive peak - 2009, 2017, 2018

Regular season Defensive peak 2009-2013 , 2016

Playoff defensive peak- 2012, 2013, 2016

Most impressive finals series- 2016


You can argue LeBron peaked higher in all those areas

Franco wrote:

MacGill wrote:but could also be your teams best defender as well.

If Jordan is your team's best defender, your defense isn't very good. At his peak Jordan was a great guard defender, but he was never the best defender on his own team when they had good ones.

Pretty much. When watching games from 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991, you see some steals (and lots of gambling and reach-ins), some great blocks, some good one-on-defense, but rotations aren’t the strongest, he’s not QB’ing the defense, he’s not shutting down actions. He doesn’t standout on defense.

The partial DRAPM we have for him doesn’t look anything like “a team’s best defender.”

homecourtloss wrote:DRAPM
1985 Magic, +2.01; 1985 Jordan, -.13
1988 Magic, -.16: 1988 Jordan, -.05
1991 Magic, +.43: 1991 Jordan, +.61

The team defensive trajectories don’t matchup with the reputation, especially considering how many minutes Jordan played. 1994 and 1995 look strong on defense. 1989 and 1990 look pedestrian even with Jordan playing heavy minutes.

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons

Perhaps you should work on some remedial addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division skills.

James may have been on the floor 76% of the time, but he clearly did not play 76% of their total minutes. Those two seasons he played 6020 minutes in the regular season, the team as a whole 39560 minutes. How does that equate to 76%? More like 15%.

In the playoffs those two years he played 1040 minutes, the team 6025. He played 17% of their total minutes.

was by far their best player on offense AND defense

By far? They ranked as the third best team in defensive efficiency over the two seasons. Even when playing James played just 1/5 of their total minutes (fyi that's 20% of the total minutes).

Maybe had you seen them play you would have known C/PF Varejao was a very good to excellent defender (in 2008-09 he received the 5th most DPOY votes among Cs, in 2009-10 the 3rd most). Delonte West was also a very good defender. Ilgauskas was also good on defense, as was Anthony Parker and Ben Wallace. Those five players combined played 1/3 to 2/5 of their total minutes over those two years. Add their minutes to those of James and those six played over half the Cavaliers total minutes in the regular season.

homecourtloss wrote:

Franco wrote:

MacGill wrote:but could also be your teams best defender as well.

If Jordan is your team's best defender, your defense isn't very good. At his peak Jordan was a great guard defender, but he was never the best defender on his own team when they had good ones.

Pretty much. When watching games from 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991, you see some steals (and lots of gambling and reach-ins), some great blocks, some good one-on-defense, but rotations aren’t the strongest, he’s not QB’ing the defense, he’s not shutting down actions. He doesn’t standout on defense.

The partial DRAPM we have for him doesn’t look anything like “a team’s best defender.”

homecourtloss wrote:DRAPM
1985 Magic, +2.01; 1985 Jordan, -.13
1988 Magic, -.16: 1988 Jordan, -.05
1991 Magic, +.43: 1991 Jordan, +.61

Those RAPM samples have extremely large errors and I believe are negatively biased on defense. The only somewhat reasonable RAPM data for MJ as a bull would be a PI estimate in 98' (+1.7 at age 34). ESPN RPM (which I don't really like since they kinda ruined it but it is a PI RAPM nonetheless) has MJ at +2.47 in 97 and +2.15 in 98. 97 NPI has Jordan at +1.9 but that would have a good amount of error around it. 97-98 JE NPI RAPM has Jordan at +1. So basically he still looks roughly like an all league guard defender in his mid 30's. What's interesting is that they all like him better than Pippen.

1993Playoffs wrote:It’s crazy because MJ was a bit more consistent. But you can argue LeBron peaked higher in MANY areas

Overall Regular season peak - 2009

Overall playoff peak -2009, 2017 , 2018?

Offensive peak - 2009, 2017, 2018

Regular season Defensive peak 2009-2013 , 2016

Playoff defensive peak- 2012, 2013, 2016

Most impressive finals series- 2016


You can argue LeBron peaked higher in all those areas

why is 2016 not included in the overalls? wasnt he takin a 30-win team to 60?

also why u leave off 2009 from playoff d peak? u think mjs d was better?

kcktiny wrote:

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons

Perhaps you should work on some remedial addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division skills.

James may have been on the floor 76% of the time, but he clearly did not play 76% of their total minutes. Those two seasons he played 6020 minutes in the regular season, the team as a whole 39560 minutes. How does that equate to 76%? More like 15%.

In the playoffs those two years he played 1040 minutes, the team 6025. He played 17% of their total minutes.

was by far their best player on offense AND defense

By far? They ranked as the third best team in defensive efficiency over the two seasons. Even when playing James played just 1/5 of their total minutes (fyi that's 20% of the total minutes).

Maybe had you seen them play you would have known C/PF Varejao was a very good to excellent defender (in 2008-09 he received the 5th most DPOY votes among Cs, in 2009-10 the 3rd most). Delonte West was also a very good defender. Ilgauskas was also good on defense, as was Anthony Parker and Ben Wallace. Those five players combined played 1/3 to 2/5 of their total minutes over those two years. Add their minutes to those of James and those six played over half the Cavaliers total minutes in the regular season.

Do you not know how basketball minutes, lineups, and rotations work?

Feels like the fact players share minutes and sum of each players’ minutes > team minutes over a given season (82*48 - without overtime games) is an elementary sort of conclusion

CzBoobie wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

This is why even with those pretty weak Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010, LeBron got them 66 and 60 wins. This arguably makes him a more valuable player than MJ.

Over those two seasons, 2008-09 and 2009-10, Cleveland won the most games (127), had the highest average per game point differential (+7.7 pts/g), was the 3rd best team in offensive efficiency (110.6 pts/100poss scored), and the 3rd best team in defensive efficiency (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). On defense they allowed the second lowest 2pt FG% (46.5%), grabbed the second most defensive rebounds (35.1 defreb/100poss), allowed the fewest points per game (93.5 pts/g).

James played just 1/7 to 1/6 of their total minutes over those two seasons. So obviously someone else - several someone else's - were also very good on both offense and defense those two years.

Perhaps you should reconsider your characterization of that Cleveland team rather than obfuscate the facts to make your point.

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons with +21 and +17 on/off and was by far their best player on offense AND defense. Not to mention they lost 6 out of 7 game he didn't play.

… ducks

ShaqAttac wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:It’s crazy because MJ was a bit more consistent. But you can argue LeBron peaked higher in MANY areas

Overall Regular season peak - 2009

Overall playoff peak -2009, 2017 , 2018?

Offensive peak - 2009, 2017, 2018

Regular season Defensive peak 2009-2013 , 2016

Playoff defensive peak- 2012, 2013, 2016

Most impressive finals series- 2016


You can argue LeBron peaked higher in all those areas

why is 2016 not included in the overalls? wasnt he takin a 30-win team to 60?

also why u leave off 2009 from playoff d peak? u think mjs d was better?

Yeah I should have included 2009 in the playoffs defensively. His entire 09-13 stretch is better defensively than MJ ever was imo.

2016 is tough maybe in the playoffs/finals he was there but I’m not sure he was playing at near MJ levels for that entire season. He was great though

MrVorp wrote:… ducks

You must have searched pretty hard to find the only stat imaginable showing those players as better defenders than LeBron. Ben Wallace playing 1700 minutes less than Bron in 08/09 and not being on the team in 09/10 at all...yeah sure. Zydrunas Ilgauskas better in 09/10...lol.

kcktiny wrote:

Your math is way off. He played 76% of total minutes over those 2 seasons

Perhaps you should work on some remedial addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division skills.

James may have been on the floor 76% of the time, but he clearly did not play 76% of their total minutes. Those two seasons he played 6020 minutes in the regular season, the team as a whole 39560 minutes. How does that equate to 76%? More like 15%.

In the playoffs those two years he played 1040 minutes, the team 6025. He played 17% of their total minutes.

You are completely out of your element I'm afraid. You really think you can just add up minutes for every player on the team? Oh my...
By that logic Wilt in 61/62 while playing 48.5 minutes in every game without single freaking substitution actually played just 1/4 of total minutes
edit: it was actually 1/5 of total minutes...duh, I didnt count his minutes to the total. It's almost like they always played 5 guys on the floor at the same time and one of them happened to be Wilt.