RealGM

Who do you prefer and why?

Jokic. Not even close.

Jokic by far, I fear.

Peak Kobe was excellent and I think some people underrate him here, but Jokic is peaking at a transcendent level on another tier in my view.

Kobe's ATG case always leaned more on longevity, mixed with a bit of situational understanding of what he did and his role. But if we're talking purely peak, I'm not even sure if Kobe's peak surpassed Wade (and if it did it's not by much) despite a clearly more successful overall career.

I struggle to think of a postseason that Kobe's had that's comparable to what Jokic just did.

Jokic to me, quite comfortably.

SilentA wrote:Peak Kobe was excellent and I think some people underrate him here, but Jokic is peaking at a transcendent level on another tier in my view.

Kobe's ATG case always leaned more on longevity, mixed with a bit of situational understanding of what he did and his role. But if we're talking purely peak, I'm not even sure if Kobe's peak surpassed Wade (and if it did it's not by much) despite a clearly more successful overall career.

Kobe was my favorite player for so many years, but he always lacked the inevitability factor I've seen from LeBron and Jokic. I was a kid watching Kobe and I remember once LeBron hit his prime it really wasn't close. To this day I'm not sure how good he truly was at his peak. Idk if he was better than Charles Barkley or Karl Malone, but I would lean "no." But clearly better than someone like Jayson Tatum, Carmelo, Paul Pierce (closer than maybe people think). Not as dominant as peak Wade, but a more scalable game because of his ability to play off ball, and he was way more durable.

But when I watch Jokic, it just seems like if the teams are even close to even, there's no way he'll lose, and I've only really felt that way about LeBron and MJ.

I could name 20 guys who peaked above Kobe, where it's really not even debatable. Give Jokic some real competition when you do these.

One_and_Done wrote:I could name 20 guys who peaked above Kobe, where it's really not even debatable.

Would love to read 20 non-debatable names over Kobe. I feel anything but the top, top dogs he has an outside argument against, the teens are perfectly debatable and once you get to, like, 20, it's probably a 50/50 at worst.

One_and_Done wrote:I could name 20 guys who peaked above Kobe, where it's really not even debatable. Give Jokic some real competition when you do these.

aside from the top 8 "Everything-included-in-the-package" kind of peaks and the top offensive weapons like Bird/Magic/Curry/Jokic, I think Kobe can defend his case against anyone. Bird, you can actually argue (as also shown in the top 100 project).

Jaivl wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I could name 20 guys who peaked above Kobe, where it's really not even debatable.

Would love to read 20 non-debatable names over Kobe. I feel anything but the top, top dogs he has an outside argument against, the teens are perfectly debatable and once you get to, like, 20, it's probably a 50/50 at worst.

In no partucular order:
Lebron, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Jordan, KG, Curry, Magic, Bird, D.Rob, Hakeem, Giannis, Jokic, Durant, T-Mac, B.Walton, Dirk, Dr J, Embiid, CP3, Kawhi, Wade, Luka, etc. That's 23 right there, and I didn't even name Russell or Wilt (if you like old timers), Euro Sabonis, or guys like Harden, K.Malone, Nash, Barkley, A.Davis and Butler, who are among guys I'd take too. Remembering this is peak only of course. Other guys have an argument too.

Pelly24 wrote:

SilentA wrote:Peak Kobe was excellent and I think some people underrate him here, but Jokic is peaking at a transcendent level on another tier in my view.

Kobe's ATG case always leaned more on longevity, mixed with a bit of situational understanding of what he did and his role. But if we're talking purely peak, I'm not even sure if Kobe's peak surpassed Wade (and if it did it's not by much) despite a clearly more successful overall career.

Kobe was my favorite player for so many years, but he always lacked the inevitability factor I've seen from LeBron and Jokic. I was a kid watching Kobe and I remember once LeBron hit his prime it really wasn't close. To this day I'm not sure how good he truly was at his peak. Idk if he was better than Charles Barkley or Karl Malone, but I would lean "no." But clearly better than someone like Jayson Tatum, Carmelo, Paul Pierce (closer than maybe people think). Not as dominant as peak Wade, but a more scalable game because of his ability to play off ball, and he was way more durable.

But when I watch Jokic, it just seems like if the teams are even close to even, there's no way he'll lose, and I've only really felt that way about LeBron and MJ.

Watching Jokic makes me feel like his game is "gamebreaking". Like it kind of just breaks the opposing defense, and he's still able to do his job on defensive end (not great, but okay).

For me, watching Kobe is like a regular NBA wing "first option" who does everything decently, then pushes his game just that little bit further in every way to defy expectations and rise above the competition. It's almost more relatable and maybe part of why he was so popular as a star. But nothing he really did other than the odd contested long jumper has me like "welp, this is just ridiculous, I'm out".

Curry's shooting and Shaq's post scoring is basically at the level of "gamebreaking offense", and Jokic is definitely up there for me where I'm like "sheesh this is ridiculous".

One_and_Done wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I could name 20 guys who peaked above Kobe, where it's really not even debatable.

Would love to read 20 non-debatable names over Kobe. I feel anything but the top, top dogs he has an outside argument against, the teens are perfectly debatable and once you get to, like, 20, it's probably a 50/50 at worst.

In no partucular order:
Lebron, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Jordan, KG, Curry, Magic, Bird, D.Rob, Hakeem, Giannis, Jokic, Durant, T-Mac, B.Walton, Dirk, Dr J, Embiid, CP3, Kawhi, Wade, Luka, etc. That's 23 right there, and I didn't even name Russell or Wilt (if you like old timers), Euro Sabonis, or guys like Harden, K.Malone, Nash, Barkley, A.Davis and Butler, who are among guys I'd take too. Remembering this is peak only of course. Other guys have an argument too.

Yeah, non-debatable at all...

I can't even imagine what kobe's argument over peak Kawhi would be. Better hair?

One_and_Done wrote:I can't even imagine what kobe's argument over peak Kawhi would be. Better hair?

Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I can't even imagine what kobe's argument over peak Kawhi would be. Better hair?

Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

Durability is irrelevant for peak comparisons.

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I can't even imagine what kobe's argument over peak Kawhi would be. Better hair?

Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

Durability is irrelevant for peak comparisons.

no it's not. Kobe could be pushed to the ground for 40 minutes by coaches.it was only up to his will. Kawhi breaks off like an old Barbie if he plays more than 30 minutes. you have to be careful with managing him even within a single game (not only a season).
I guess the effect is more pronounced if you pick 2019 instead of 2017

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I can't even imagine what kobe's argument over peak Kawhi would be. Better hair?

Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

Durability is irrelevant for peak comparisons.

It is if Kawhi struggles with health even in his best seasons...

AdagioPace wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

Durability is irrelevant for peak comparisons.

no it's not. Kobe could be pushed to the ground for 40 minutes by coaches.it was only up to his will. Kawhi breaks off like an old Barbie if he plays more than 30 minutes. you have to be careful with managing him even within a single game (not only a season).
I guess the effect is more pronounced if you pick 2019 instead of 2017

Yeh Kobe could will his injuries away with his mamba mentality
We'll never know if Kobe could will himself into playing 40 mins at full intensity because he took half the game off and played in a time when he could focus on low energy one on one iso plays.

AdagioPace wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:Significantly better playmaker for on-court stuff, but durability is way more important point.

Durability is irrelevant for peak comparisons.

no it's not. Kobe could be pushed to the ground for 40 minutes by coaches.it was only up to his will. Kawhi breaks off like an old Barbie if he plays more than 30 minutes. you have to be careful with managing him even within a single game (not only a season).
I guess the effect is more pronounced if you pick 2019 instead of 2017

And he has the persona of Dr. Oppenheimer too