Top Scoring Apexes?

[rk2023]

Curious to see everybody’s thoughts. My personal T-10 (I’m weighting much, much more for PS):

89-91 MJ
77-80 Kareem
16-18 LBJ
65-68 West
00-02 Shaq
08-11 Nowitzki
15-17 Curry
12-14 Durant
08-10 Bryant
09-11 Wade

[OhayoKD]

Kareem and Jordan have solid cases for 1 and lebron is a bit under. Maaaybe west has a top 3 case, but I'd have to check.

[penbeast0]

There is a stat that does a reasonably good job (not perfect but neither is my judgment), TS ADD, which combines volume, efficiency, and compares to the league that year. It does not attempt to adjust for weaker/stronger eras and is regular seasons only. To put it in context, Jokic led the league last year with a TS ADD of 289.6. Unless I missed one, these are all the over 400 TS Add seasons (Durant, Oscar Roberson, and Durant again have the next 3 spots):

1. Abdul-Jabbar 1972 463.0
2. Curry 2016 454.7
3. Abdul-Jabbar 1971 453.0
4. Chamberlain 1967 441.5
5. Barkley 1988 433.5
6. Chamberlain 1962 430.1
7. Dantley 1984 404.8

(fixed after error in #4 spot pointed out to me)

[One_and_Done]

Curious to see everybody’s thoughts. My personal T-10 (I’m weighting much, much more for PS):

89-91 MJ
77-80 Kareem
16-18 LBJ
65-68 West
00-02 Shaq
08-11 Nowitzki
15-17 Curry
12-14 Durant
08-10 Bryant
09-11 Wade

Kobe 08-10 per 100: 36.8 points 561 TS%, 113 Ortg
Giannis 20-22 per 100: 42.7 points, 626 TS%, 121 Ortg

Kobe PS 08-10 per 100: 38.6 points 569 TS%, 115 Ortg
Giannis PS 20-22: 40.3 points 586 TS%, 115 Ortg

Not seeing Kobe's case. Shall I do Kawhi next?

[f4p]

There is a stat that does a reasonably good job (not perfect but neither is my judgment), TS ADD, which combines volume, efficiency, and compares to the league that year. It does not attempt to adjust for weaker/stronger eras and is regular seasons only. To put it in context, Jokic led the league last year with a TS ADD of 289.6. Unless I missed one, these are all the over 400 TS Add seasons (Durant, Oscar Roberson, and Durant again have the next 3 spots):

1. Abdul-Jabbar 1972 463.0
2. Curry 2016 454.7
3. Abdul-Jabbar 1971 453.0
4. Hawkins 1968 (ABA) 441.5
5. Barkley 1988 433.5
6. Chamberlain 1962 430.1
7. Dantley 1984 404.8

67 wilt is 441.5.

[MiamiBulls]

Top 10 Scorers
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Dirk
4.West
5.Shaq
6.Kareem
7.Curry
8.Kobe
9.Durant
10.Wade

Adjusting for Defensive Opponent Quality, Turnover Economy, Health/Durability

[homecourtloss]

Top 10 Scorers
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Dirk
4.West
5.Shaq
6.Kareem
7.Curry
8.Kobe
9.Durant
10.Wade

Adjusting for Defensive Opponent Quality, Turnover Economy, Health/Durability

Interesting. Do you have a formula that you run?

[rk2023]

Top 10 Scorers
1.Jordan
2.Lebron
3.Dirk
4.West
5.Shaq
6.Kareem
7.Curry
8.Kobe
9.Durant
10.Wade

Adjusting for Defensive Opponent Quality, Turnover Economy, Health/Durability

Interesting. Do you have a formula that you run?

Not Miami bulls, but I look at the film and tracking on synergy and 2nd spectrum, then the box (eg scoreVal, Rate, efficiency), then look to surrounding years (RS similar opponents, and PS) for extrapolation just for mental notes. 70s study on production against various rDRTGs has been useful for my intel, on that note

[LukaTheGOAT]

Curious to see everybody’s thoughts. My personal T-10 (I’m weighting much, much more for PS):

89-91 MJ
77-80 Kareem
16-18 LBJ
65-68 West
00-02 Shaq
08-11 Nowitzki
15-17 Curry
12-14 Durant
08-10 Bryant
09-11 Wade

Kobe 08-10 per 100: 36.8 points 561 TS%, 113 Ortg
Giannis 20-22 per 100: 42.7 points, 626 TS%, 121 Ortg

Kobe PS 08-10 per 100: 38.6 points 569 TS%, 115 Ortg
Giannis PS 20-22: 40.3 points 586 TS%, 115 Ortg

Not seeing Kobe's case. Shall I do Kawhi next?

I think you know what Kobe's case is, as you have made similar arguments before. But to reiterate, most people here DO adjust for efficiency relative to era.

So 08-10 Kobe

28.95 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.9%). Bryant had a PS ScoreVal of 1.5.


20-22 Giannis

30.23 pts per 75 (rTS% of 2.3%). Giannis had a PS ScoreVal of 1.


The Lakers had a rORTG of 6.7, which is a higher rORTG than the Milwaukee Bucks had any single PS of the Giannis era.

[One_and_Done]

And as you know I don't feel a flat TS% adjustment based on how bad the league you played in was is appropriate.

[70sFan]

Curious to see everybody’s thoughts. My personal T-10 (I’m weighting much, much more for PS):

89-91 MJ
77-80 Kareem
16-18 LBJ
65-68 West
00-02 Shaq
08-11 Nowitzki
15-17 Curry
12-14 Durant
08-10 Bryant
09-11 Wade

Nice list, though I would have Durant a bit higher and I could make a case for Gervin, Harden and Kawhi over Wade. I think Barkley has an outside chance as well. Man, it's tough...

What do you think about Jokic by the way?

[70sFan]

And as you know I don't feel a flat TS% adjustment based on how bad the league you played in was is appropriate.

The same bad league in which Duncan, Shaq and James played?

[rk2023]

And as you know I don't feel a flat TS% adjustment based on how bad the league you played in was is appropriate.

The same bad league in which Duncan, Shaq and James played?

Can’t forget the same bad league in which Durant was still learning to master scoring in.

[rk2023]

Curious to see everybody’s thoughts. My personal T-10 (I’m weighting much, much more for PS):

89-91 MJ
77-80 Kareem
16-18 LBJ
65-68 West
00-02 Shaq
08-11 Nowitzki
15-17 Curry
12-14 Durant
08-10 Bryant
09-11 Wade

Nice list, though I would have Durant a bit higher and I could make a case for Gervin, Harden and Kawhi over Wade. I think Barkley has an outside chance as well. Man, it's tough...

What do you think about Jokic by the way?

Jokic is quite close Imo. As a whole, this exercise does have a caveat (it’s just for fun) where isolating scoring isn’t as optimal as evaluating offense as a whole due to the nuance better passers won’t be face-guarded as aggressively because of how they can make a defense pay if so. Such is true with Jokic, but for the sake of this exercise he’d be a very worthy HM.

[One_and_Done]

And as you know I don't feel a flat TS% adjustment based on how bad the league you played in was is appropriate.

The same bad league in which Duncan, Shaq and James played?

What those guys did in that league is vastly more impressive than what Kobe did in it.

[70sFan]

And as you know I don't feel a flat TS% adjustment based on how bad the league you played in was is appropriate.

The same bad league in which Duncan, Shaq and James played?

What those guys did in that league is vastly more impressive than what Kobe did in it.

Not in terms of scoring.

[One_and_Done]

The same bad league in which Duncan, Shaq and James played?

What those guys did in that league is vastly more impressive than what Kobe did in it.

Not in terms of scoring.

1) Not everything is about scoring, and you're conflating different concepts here that are disjointed from the initial point. People shot worse in the 00s than today, so you shouldn't reward someone for the shooting % of their time being bad. Whether that means a player in that era was overrated or not will depend on what ppl are rating them highly for. Nobody is rating Duncan top 5 on his volume scoring ability.
2) That's not even true probably if we're talking peak to peak conparison with say Lebron or Shaq.

[rk2023]

Kareem and Jordan have solid cases for 1 and lebron is a bit under. Maaaybe west has a top 3 case, but I'd have to check.

I think he could certainly be that high, if not more. Hard to say without many full games over different years to see how West is generating his scoring and what counters are deployed. 4 seems like a solid spot based on what we know (eg. Box data, his scoring efficacy holding a ton of offensive lift with WOWY signals we have, the limited film showing him being a great shooter and aggressive driver), but as you said.. him being closer to the upper-most echelon might not surprise me.

[70sFan]

What those guys did in that league is vastly more impressive than what Kobe did in it.

Not in terms of scoring.

1) Not everything is about scoring, and you're conflating different concepts here that are disjointed from the initial point. People shot worse in the 00s than today, so you shouldn't reward someone for the shooting % of their time being bad. Whether that means a player in that era was overrated or not will depend on what ppl are rating them highly for. Nobody is rating Duncan top 5 on his volume scoring ability.
2) That's not even true probably if we're talking peak to peak conparison with say Lebron or Shaq.

Of all posters, I am the last who you should explain that scoring isn't everything...

We are in the topic of "scoring apex", why should I focus on defense for example in this case?

I think it's the time to stop engaging.

[Owly]

There is a stat that does a reasonably good job (not perfect but neither is my judgment), TS ADD, which combines volume, efficiency, and compares to the league that year. It does not attempt to adjust for weaker/stronger eras and is regular seasons only. To put it in context, Jokic led the league last year with a TS ADD of 289.6. Unless I missed one, these are all the over 400 TS Add seasons (Durant, Oscar Roberson, and Durant again have the next 3 spots):

1. Abdul-Jabbar 1972 463.0
2. Curry 2016 454.7
3. Abdul-Jabbar 1971 453.0
4. Hawkins 1968 (ABA) 441.5
5. Barkley 1988 433.5
6. Chamberlain 1962 430.1
7. Dantley 1984 404.8

Looking at 3 or 4 of these, I think these numbers are slightly off what Reference has though not significantly so and in a way that might be attributable to rounding ... except Hawkins. Hawkins has 359.4 according to Reference. I could see prorating his 70/78 games to whatever/82, but then Groza's 377.4 in a 64 game season and perhaps others would be in there, and adding most of 4 games wouldn't account for circa 80 ts add jump.

Do you know what could account for this difference?