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Both are 2 of the best offensive seasons ever , which do you have higher?

Lean LBJ here. This is his sixth best season too imo (behind 09-13 sans 11 and 16). Pretty wild that he's treading water compared to what very well could be a top ten peak while nearing the tail-end of his prime

You could have picked 2020 Lebron and it still wouldn't be close. It's Lebron.

rk2023 wrote:Lean LBJ here. This is his sixth best season too imo (behind 09-13 sans 11 and 16). Pretty wild that he's treading water compared to what very well could be a top ten peak while nearing the tail-end of his prime

At the same time there's a fair amount of people who rate it as his peak or top 3 season.

2017 LeBron is just too proven as a commodity to go with Jokic here. Plus some defensive gap(not a huge one imo but it's enough to move the needle).

Cavsfansince84 wrote:2017 LeBron is just too proven as a commodity to go with Jokic here. Plus some defensive gap(not a huge one imo but it's enough to move the needle).

Does Jokic winning Fmvp in dominant fashion while LeBron while great wss swept , play a factor?

1993Playoffs wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:2017 LeBron is just too proven as a commodity to go with Jokic here. Plus some defensive gap(not a huge one imo but it's enough to move the needle).

Does Jokic winning Fmvp in dominant fashion while LeBron while great wss swept , play a factor?

LeBron wasn't swept in 2017. Obviously both players playoff runs have to be taken into account. At the same time what do you think happens if the Cavs face the 2023 Heat instead of almost inarguably the greatest team of all time? The unsung part of LeBron's 15-18 playoff runs will always be that they came right on the heels of 4 more finals runs and 1-2 Olympics in the summer. Which gets taken into account when looking at his career but not from season to season.

This season is peak LeBron to me. I'd take him that year over Jokić on offense alone, let alone the defensive difference.

Ben AN wrote:This season is peak LeBron to me. I'd take him that year over Jokić on offense alone, let alone the defensive difference.

Do you think his offense that year was enough to compensate for all-time++ defensive campaigns for his position in 09-13/16/20 for example?

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

1993Playoffs wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:2017 LeBron is just too proven as a commodity to go with Jokic here. Plus some defensive gap(not a huge one imo but it's enough to move the needle).

Does Jokic winning Fmvp in dominant fashion while LeBron while great wss swept , play a factor?

LeBron wasn't swept in 2017. Obviously both players playoff runs have to be taken into account. At the same time what do you think happens if the Cavs face the 2023 Heat instead of almost inarguably the greatest team of all time? The unsung part of LeBron's 15-18 playoff runs will always be that they came right on the heels of 4 more finals runs and 1-2 Olympics in the summer. Which gets taken into account when looking at his career but not from season to season.

Even with the warriors series, 2017 cleveland grade out as one of best trams ever with psrs. Playoff elevation isn't really a winning case in this comparison

rk2023 wrote:

Ben AN wrote:This season is peak LeBron to me. I'd take him that year over Jokić on offense alone, let alone the defensive difference.

Do you think his offense that year was enough to compensate for all-time++ defensive campaigns for his position in 09-13/16/20 for example?

Yes, I also don't think there was much slippage on that end compared to 09-13/16. I would even go 17>20 as far as overall defensive impact, because of his advantages as far as off ball activity (playing the passing lanes, rebounding, ball denial), roaming and all time great foul pressure (which allowed opposing teams less transition opportunities, because said team's regular PFs committed against the Cavs would results in free throws more often as the other team would already be in the bonus. A missed free throw isn't as bad as a missed shot on average, since misses on second-to-last/third to last free throw attempts can't result in an opposing fast break).

Lol

Gotta go with Lebron here. He single handedly made his role players shoot 45% from 3 when it counted.

MrVorp wrote:Gotta go with Lebron here. He single handedly made his role players shoot 45% from 3 when it counted.

Is this serious or facetious?

I think it's Bron but I found Jokic's playoff performance more impressive. I also think that the teams the Nuggets faced this year were a lot more impressive than those East teams that the Cavs ran through year after year.

You have to pick LeBron because you have so much information about him coming also from his seasons before and after 2017.
Information that allows you to properly put in perspective what you saw and really know what you can believe.
But I don't think the gap is really THAT significant and I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years we would have to go back a reconsider this take, if the Nuggets and Jokic on the tear there's good chance they might be up to now.

rk2023 wrote:

MrVorp wrote:Gotta go with Lebron here. He single handedly made his role players shoot 45% from 3 when it counted.

Is this serious or facetious?

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Been on a crazy 2012-2018 full-game LeBron binge this summer. I may actually rank 2017 as his weakest of those 7 seasons. Still amazing, of course, but physically this is the smallest he looked since like 2007 and I thought it negatively impacted his explosiveness. He's slower off the gates and thus more dribble-happy than probably any other year of his career pre-2017. 2023 Jokic to me is undoubtedly the superior offensive player. Just a matter of whether LeBron's defense is good enough to make up for Jokic's offensive edge. Hard to go against a guy that won the championship with the clinic Jokic put on the entire postseason though. LeBron had that gaudy stat line in the FInals but I don't think his impact matched his numbers that series.

I'd probably take any other version of LeBron from 09-18 over 2023 Jokic ('11 and '15 excluded).

Honestly, IMO, the only real question would be 2023 Jokic vs. 2009 LeBron. Jokic this past year was just outrageously good. I consistently came away from watching his games thinking to myself that I had watched the best basketball player I’d ever seen.

lessthanjake wrote:Honestly, IMO, the only real question would be 2023 Jokic vs. 2009 LeBron. Jokic this past year was just outrageously good. I consistently came away from watching his games thinking to myself that I had watched the best basketball player I’d ever seen.

I mean I said the same things about LeBron’s 2009/2017 seasons as well. I do think Lebron was a clearly better defensive player when engaged. Offensively it’s pretty tough to pick though