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For some odd reason I was looking at the 07’ Heat BR page. They’re widely known as the most pathetic title defense ever. Wade was 25 and Shaq was a year removed from being first team all nba but they lost to Chicago in the first rd. What other examples of a team having the two best players in a series and losing?

2011 Grizzlies over the Spurs?

2018 OKC vs. Utah is the most recent I can think of (George, Westbrook)

Hook_Em wrote:For some odd reason I was looking at the 07’ Heat BR page. They’re widely known as the most pathetic title defense ever. Wade was 25 and Shaq was a year removed from being first team all nba but they lost to Chicago in the first rd. What other examples of a team having the two best players in a series and losing?

I would say that one's not the best example because Shaq just wasn't that good. Due to weak competition, voter offensive focus, and voting by reputation, Shaq continued to get accolades long after he stopped being a quality offensive anchor and started to be a massive negative on defense.

In terms of something describing the phenomenon you say, it is tricky because often the result happens because one of the 2 "best" players doesn't play like it, but in terms of shock based on reputation, the '04 finals where the Pistons trounced Shaq & Kobe is one of the ultimate examples.

parsnips33 wrote:2011 Grizzlies over the Spurs?

Perhaps, but it must be factored in that Ginobili's injuries limited his playing time. At his best he was the best player in the series, when he wasn't, I think you could argue that the Grizz had the two best players in Randolph & Gasol. Could argue Parker over one of them of course, but it also depends on how much credit you give them for Duncan looking so ineffective.

Also wasn't wade severely hammered by injury? Like he missed 20+ games in a row from February-April and came back right before the playoffs and was clearly not the same. I think he also had multiple surgeries that offseason and then continued to mightily struggle with his health the next season too.

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions. Is there a stipulation they have to have been healthy at the time?

Vince/Tmac Raptors lost to Sprewell/Houston Knicks though tbf they were incredibly young.

Shaq in the 2006 playoffs was a role player. By 2007 he was a low-end role player. He certainly wasn't the 2nd Best Player in that series against Chicago.

A series w/Best 2 players would be the 2005 1st Round Rockets v Mavericks. Dirk averaged 21ppg on 36% eFG 47% TS and the Rockets still lost that series after winning the first 2 gms on the road. No one on the Mavericks played better than Tracy Mcgrady & Yao Ming in that series.

2004 NBA finals too, if we’re bringing a Shaq series to the table.

2011 Heat

parsnips33 wrote:2011 Grizzlies over the Spurs?

Ginobili was seriously injured, to the point that he was declared to be in doubt for the Olympics after that series ended, and Duncan hadn't dropped the weight yet in 2011. In 2012 he did that, so he was more mobile again and carried less weight, and it had immediate effect. I'd say the Grizzlies had at least one of the best 2 players that series.

1976 ECSF Cavs vs. Bullets
1984 EC 1st Rd Nets vs. 76ers

rk2023 wrote:2018 OKC vs. Utah is the most recent I can think of (George, Westbrook)

doesn't really work with gobert playing for utah

A bit of a shot at Dirk I guess, but 2011 Heat against the Mavs. 2004 Lakers is definitely one. This sort of thing basically just requires an opponent with a great ensemble cast with no standouts and/or just a complete collapse by one or both stars on the team with the two best players.

lessthanjake wrote:A bit of a shot at Dirk I guess, but 2011 Heat against the Mavs. 2004 Lakers is definitely one. If we think James Worthy was better than anyone on the Bad Boy Pistons then the 1988 Finals would be one. This sort of thing basically just requires an opponent with a great ensemble cast with no standouts and/or just a complete collapse by one or both stars on the team with the two best players.

The lakers won the 1988 finals?

rk2023 wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:A bit of a shot at Dirk I guess, but 2011 Heat against the Mavs. 2004 Lakers is definitely one. If we think James Worthy was better than anyone on the Bad Boy Pistons then the 1988 Finals would be one. This sort of thing basically just requires an opponent with a great ensemble cast with no standouts and/or just a complete collapse by one or both stars on the team with the two best players.

The lakers won the 1988 finals?

LOL! Yes, that was a typo. I meant 1989, but also I just remembered Magic only played half that series, so it’s not really a valid example anyways.

OhayoKD wrote:

rk2023 wrote:2018 OKC vs. Utah is the most recent I can think of (George, Westbrook)

doesn't really work with gobert playing for utah

I got the PG-13 years mixed up, silly me.

lessthanjake wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:A bit of a shot at Dirk I guess, but 2011 Heat against the Mavs. 2004 Lakers is definitely one. If we think James Worthy was better than anyone on the Bad Boy Pistons then the 1988 Finals would be one. This sort of thing basically just requires an opponent with a great ensemble cast with no standouts and/or just a complete collapse by one or both stars on the team with the two best players.

The lakers won the 1988 finals?

LOL! Yes, that was a typo. I meant 1989, but also I just remembered Magic only played half that series, so it’s not really a valid example anyways.

Tbf, could always just say the Pistons beating the Jordan/Pippen Bulls in 1990 instead (not sure how good Pippen was in 1989 though)

Maybe there's an outside case for Sonics sweeping the Rockets in 1996. Hakeem was definitely better than Payton/Kemp, but 1996 Clyde Drexler may be more debatable. Those Sonics were sort of a sneaky depth team.

Hook_Em wrote:For some odd reason I was looking at the 07’ Heat BR page. They’re widely known as the most pathetic title defense ever. Wade was 25 and Shaq was a year removed from being first team all nba but they lost to Chicago in the first rd. What other examples of a team having the two best players in a series and losing?

2007 Shaq is not even close to Luol Deng, probably a perfectly average player considering injuries.

rk2023 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

rk2023 wrote:2018 OKC vs. Utah is the most recent I can think of (George, Westbrook)

doesn't really work with gobert playing for utah

I got the PG-13 years mixed up, silly me.

No, you were perfectly right.

SilentA wrote:Tbf, could always just say the Pistons beating the Jordan/Pippen Bulls in 1990 instead (not sure how good Pippen was in 1989 though)

1989 Pippen is certainly a no. 1990 Pippen, by the time playoff comes you could maaaybe argue he's at or close to his 1991 form.

1981 Kansas City over Phoenix
1995 Los Angeles over Seattle