RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #25 (Giannis Antetokounmpo)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:05 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Giannis Antetokounmpo

Charles Barkley

James Harden

Nikola Jokic

Dwyane Wade

HeartBreakKid · Post #2 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:23 pm

My vote is for Nikola Jokic - I believe he is the most dominant player here by a decent margin, even more over his contemporary Giannis. It was looking like we might not see an offensive player comparable to James but I think Jokic is that and then some. He stretches defenses, he knows how to get open, he can pass from every where on the court, he has no problems taking over and scoring on high volume. I love Jokic on the fast break as well, it's great how he turned one of his weaknesses (stamina) into a relative strength.

His main con is likely longevity which is not big on my criteria. However, I think in terms of longevity he is quite comparable to Giannis and Wade. Chuck has better longevity among the group but Chuck still has weak longevity for a player with a healthy and complete career (he didn't take care of himself that well, and kind of sand bagged a few seasons). I like Harden, but it took a while before his game saw some translation in the playoffs (he's the player here who I think has the best functional longevity).

Joker's defense has also increased. I thought at worst it was a Dirk Nowitzki situation. You certainly want your center to be a great defender, but Jokic is such an outlier on offense that I think it more than makes up for it.

Alternate vote is for Wade - Switching from Barkley to Dwyane Wade. I actually was going to vote for Giannis here (I've been convinced that he deserves a vote over Barkley). I did not notice Wade is now on the official nominees. I feel like Wade's ability as a combo guard may lead to him being able to consistently put his will on teams in the post season. He isn't a liability like Chucky is on defense as well. It's close between him and Giannis.

My nomination is for Kawhi Leonard - At two different points he was an awesome defender and an awesome scorer. His health and priorities never made them line up at least not for a long time, but I think his dominance as a scorer and defender depending on the year is truly special.

My alternate nomination is for Bob Pettit - Very well rounded player and career. fundamentally sound, ideal traditional size for a 4, had a great competitive mentality without any reported toxic elements. He is one of the players who transitioned from 50s style of play into the 60s and was still a top guy. He was a great center piece for St Louis. I would take him over players with more intimidating physical profiles like Ewing and Reed who had high peaks but had a lot of seasons where they dropped off.

Post #3 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:32 pm

Vote 1 - Charles Barkley
Vote 2 - TBD
Nomination 1 - Bob Pettit
Nomination 2 - John Stockton

From '87-'94, Barkley was pretty much unstoppable:

25.1 PPG, 11.9 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, .9 BPG, 63.2% TS, .58 FTr, .236 WS/48, 6.5 OBPM, 122 ORTG

His playoff production during that period dipped slightly in certain areas, but overall he was a great playoff performer:

26.1 PPG, 13.2 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.6 SPG, .9 BPG, 58.4% TS, .481 FTr, .202 WS/48, 6.5 OBPM, 120 ORTG

'93 finals stats - https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html

As an undersized PF, Barkley was still one of the most efficient and dynamic volume scorers the game has ever seen. He used an uncanny combination of bulk and speed to beat larger defenders off the dribble, and finish above the rim. From '86-'92, he put up 24.7 PPG on a hyper efficient 64.4% TS (+10.7 rTS!) He scored on over 60% TS in each of those 7 seasons, leading the league in TS% for 4 years straight during that span. He has an absurd career TS Add of 2,972.8 and was never a negative in his 16 seasons.

Barkley's physicality early in his career was exemplary. He used sheer force to take over games, and it carried over into other areas in addition to scoring. He ranked 7th in the league in steals at 2.2 per game in only his 2nd year, extremely impressive for a 250+ pound player. A year later, Barkley led the league in boards at 14.6 per game. As a footnote to his career, he finished 2nd in RPG and TRB% at 35 years old.

It's important to note that every team Barkley was on immediately improved when he got there:

Philly
- '84: 52-30, 2.39 SRS
- '85: 58-24, 4.17 SRS (rookie year)

Phoenix
- '92: 53-29, 5.69 SRS
- '93: 62-20, 6.27 SRS (first year with the suns, taking them to the finals)

Houston
- '96: 48-34, 1.63 SRS
- '97: 57-25, 3.85 SRS (first year with the rockets)

While the suns finals appearance in '93 would be their best finish after acquiring Barkley, they had 3 straight seasons of 56+ wins in his 4 years there. One of the main culprits here was injuries to his best teammates. In Barkley's 4 years in PHX, Kevin Johnson only played in 49, 67, 47, and 56 games respectively. In 95-96, Barkley's last season in PHX, Danny Manning only played 33 games, and their 3rd leading scorer was a rookie Michael Finley.

I don't pay super close attention to career totals when it comes to the NBA, but this is impressive nonetheless: Barkley is 1 of 7 players in NBA history to post career totals of 20,000+ points, 10,000+ boards, and 4,000+ assists (Kareem, LeBron, Wilt, Karl Malone, Duncan, Garnett). I'd love to start voting for Giannis and Jokic, two of my favorite players but the longevity just isn't quite there for me yet. And yes I know they're getting closer and closer to Magic and Bird's very average longevity. I'll be considering them soon.

lessthanjake · Post #4 » by **lessthanjake** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:50 pm

Vote for #25: Nikola Jokic
Alternate Vote: Giannis Antetokounmpo
Nomination: Kawhi Leonard
Alternate Nomination: Bob Pettit

To me, Jokic is just the best player here. His impact stats have been incredible the last few years—probably best in the NBA overall in that particular timespan. His box stats are through the roof—up there with peak Jordan and peak LeBron in both regular season and playoffs in essentially every frequently-used metric. He has a dominant playoff run on his way to a title. I just don’t see anyone else here as having that combination. Yes, he’s lacking in longevity at this stage, but it’s not enough for me here, especially as the other players here largely aren’t super high in the longevity category either. The other thing for me is just the eye test. This is honestly where the gap is for me with Giannis. Giannis’s impact stats are good (though not as good as Jokic), he’s had a really impressive title run, and his box score stats are incredible too while he also is a fantastic defender. It’d be possible on paper for me to put him above Jokic, except that I’ve just watched both of them a bunch and my eye test tells me Jokic is a better player. I realize that eye test isn’t precise and is even less precise about defense (where Giannis has the advantage), but I just come away from watching Jokic thinking I have watched the best basketball player I’ve ever seen, and Giannis just doesn’t make me feel the same way. Jokic is the extremely rare player where, when he touches the ball, you basically just know his team is going to get a good look or he’s going to take a shot that for him is very high percentage. I’ve only ever felt quite that way about watching Steve Nash (who we just inducted, and who actually is less good defensively IMO and has achieved less than Jokic). I know Giannis’s defense is substantially better, but Jokic is on my shortlist of best offense players ever and I watch them and just feel way more confidence when rooting for Jokic than with Giannis.

As for nomination, I just think Kawhi is the best player left on the board. There’s longevity/injury problems and I wouldn’t mind at all Pettit being nominated at this point, but when healthy I think Kawhi is the best player left. Just for reference, from 2015-2016 onwards, Kawhi has a 29.0 PER, 0.262 win shares per 48 minutes, and 11.0 BPM in the playoffs, and that’s with metrics that don’t adequately account for a major area that Kawhi also excels at (defense). I just think that he can raise his game to a higher level than anyone left, and he has the team success to go along with it.

Samurai · Post #5 » by **Samurai** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:10 pm

Vote for #25: Giannis. Not entirely comfortable with this pick due to his lack of longevity compared to to the other nominees; would likely feel much more confident in this if he continues his pace another couple of years. But his prime has been so impressive so far that it becomes a mitigating factor for me. George Mikan Trophy winner in 2017, two-time MVP , Finals MVP, and DPOY - his accolades speak for themselves. Particularly impressive to me is his gravity; the opposing team has to shift their overall strategy to account for him on both ends of the court more than I've seen from the other nominees.

Alternate vote: Charles Barkley. This was very tough for me since there are a number of people not nominated yet that I would prefer over the choices available. Kind of like an election where you don't like any of the candidates and would prefer to vote for none of the above. But since I can only vote for someone who has been nominated, I will give Sir Charles my vote. Elite offensive player with longevity. 1993 MVP and 11-time All NBA (5 first teams, 5 second teams and 1 third team), and led the league in TS% 4 times. Also an excellent rebounder in his prime, leading the league once and finishing in the top ten 9 times.

Nomination: Bob Pettit. To be clear, I have not and still do not believe in time machines so anyone wanting to time machine Pettit to the present NBA or a future era must first convince me that a time machine exists. Without a time machine, it is obvious that he would be terrible today since the man is over 90 years old. And also completely irrelevant. He was a 2-time MVP and 10-time All NBA First Team and Second Team once. I will also concede that I never saw him play live. But his adaptability is extremely impressive to me. His first season was 1955 and Neil Johnston was the big star then (a broken-down Mikan came out of retirement to play 37 games in 56). But by 1964, Pettit's second to last season, he was competing against the likes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Lucas and Havlicek. The league strength was much higher in 1964 than 1955 and yet Pettit was still All NBA First Team in 64. He was the bridge from the Mikan era to the Russell/Wilt/Oscar/West era and he was elite in both eras.

Alternate nomination: Walt Frazier. Was always a fan of his and felt he was largely underrated since his role on the Knicks wasn't to be a dominant shooter. The Knicks were the epitome of a team-first emphasis in which the ball kept moving and resulted in guys like Frazier, Reed, DeBusschere, Barnett (then Monroe), Bradley, Lucas, etc. all getting their shots. Frazier was so good and efficient that if I were Red Holzman I probably would have wanted Frazier shooting more and DeBusschere and Bradley shoot a little less, but no one was asking me to coach the team. But within the parameters that Holzman wanted, Frazier played his part superbly. He took care of the ball, shot a very high percentage, and was a dominant man defender. 7-time All Defensive First Team, 4-time All NBA First Team (and 2-time second team), he was a guy who did everything very well with no glaring weakness.

One_and_Done · Post #6 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:47 pm

Vote: Giannis

Alternate: Barkley

Nominate: Kawhi

Alternate nomination: Pippen I guess (having trouble identifying a plausible candidate who has enough votes)

Giannis is up for me now.

Yeh, sure, Giannis only has 10 years in the league; but when Jordan first retired he only had 9 and people were already calling him one of the greatest ever. In today’s game would Jordan really be more impactful than Giannis? I have my doubts. Just comparing Giannis/D.Rob/Dirk/Kobe’s best seasons, here’s how they come out:

Giannis 2019-23 – 42.6 pp100, 17.6 rp100, 8.4 ap100, 120 Ortg/103 Drtg, 625 TS%

D.Rob (pre-Duncan) prime 90-96 – 33.9 pp100, 15.6 rp100, 4.1 ap100, 118 Ortg/97 Drtg, 592 TS%

Dirk (post-Nash) prime 2005-11 RS – 35.7 pp100, 12.1 rp100, 4.2 ap100, 119 Ortg/104 Drtg, 586 TS%.

Kobe (post-Shaq) prime 2006-10 RS – 39.2 pp100, 7.3 rp100, 6.6ap100, 114 Ortg/106 Drtg, 565 TS%

How about playoffs?

Giannis 19-23: 39 pp100, 17.8 rp100, 7.5 apg, 113 Ortg/ 102 Drtg 580 TS%

D.Rob 90-96: 31.6 pp100, 15.5 rp100, 3.9 ap100, 113 Ortg/101 Drtg 557 TS%

Dirk 05-11: 34.3 pp100, 13.3 rp100, 3.9 ap100, 119 Ortg/107 Drtg, 586 TS%

Kobe 06-10: 38.1 pp100, 7.3 rp100, 6.9 ap100, 114 Ortg/108 Drtg, 570 TS%

So the first observation is that Giannis is the best of the bunch and it’s not close. The only reason not to take him yet is if you don’t think he has “enough” longevity. He isn’t just a force offensively, he’s one of the best defensive players you could have in the modern era. Defense is something that’s hard to measure, but I think we can all agree D.Rob and Giannis are 2 of the best defensive players ever. Then on the other end they’d only need to be solid to be in discussion here. But they’re not just solid. Giannis is flat out better than the rest on offense, and while D.Rob is the “worst” of the 4 in the playoffs on O, he’s still close enough that I don’t know that the others have much of a case over him given his all-time defensive anchoring ability. If you’re taking Dirk or Kobe it’s got to be on longevity. Kobe looks the worst on balance by far. He’s 2nd of the group on volume scoring, but he does it by having bad efficiency which is probably part of why his TS% is the worst of anyone except playoffs D.Rob, and his Ortg is the worst of the bunch on balance (because regular season isn’t worthless, your performance there adds a lot of value). Then factor in this is literally Kobe’s very best stretch. If we’d run this from 00-10 for instance, he’d look so much worse (see above comparison with KD).

Kawhi has as much longevity as Jokic probably if not more, if we're taking guys without longevity he's my pick for now. I could go 10 different ways nominating right now tbh.

If I was focusing more on longevity I'd take all manner of guys over Stockton including Ray Allen, Jimmy Butler, Gilmore, Paul Pierce, etc. Stockton wasn't a star. Ditto Reggie. I'd take 100 guys over Pettit.

I'm torn on my 2nd nomination as there are alot of options here; AD, Pippen, Gilmore, Butler, Clyde, Lillard, Kidd, Embiid, Dwight, the Gasol brothers, P.George maybe, and a tonne of others.

AEnigma · Post #7 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:38 pm

VOTE: Dwyane Wade
Alternate: Charles Barkley
NOMINATE: Patrick Ewing
AltNom: Bob Pettit

As I have stated, Giannis and Jokic only have seven relevant years, and those years are not so undeniable that I feel compelled to put them in my top 25 just yet. Barkley I see as a guy who never won a title, peaked as maybe the third best player in the league, and has one legitimately impressive win as his team’s leader (1993 Sonics). And Harden just loses the shooting guard comparison to Wade.

EDIT: Forced to choose between Barkley and Giannis in the absence of any strong support for Wade, I choose Barkley on total career (while generally agreeing with their respective placements in the latest peaks project).

One_and_Done · Post #8 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:42 pm

Giannis gives you the lift of a Jokic type, without the huge defensive weakness. Giannis also has more longevity as a legit star, and more longevity as a whole.

Barkley haa plenty of longevity, but peak Giannis is just too much better.

Post #9 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:48 pm

Vote: Giannis: Slight edge over Jokic, strong edge over everyone else except for his limited career duration but enough better to vote both he and Jokic here.

Alternative: Jokic: Like Giannis, great peak, short duration, but enough to vote him in at this point for me. Harder to build around than Giannis with Giannis's superior defensive skills.

Nomination: Stockton: Similar to Steve Nash, better in set plays, less outstanding when required to improvise, equivalent shooter on near equivalent volume, far superior defender, strong durability edge. Issues with playoff performances are his biggest weakness as I don't think a player is automatically just a role player if he doesn't score 20 ppg.

Alternative Nomination: Ewing: Strong defender, team leader, scorer, good durability, some playoff failures. Much as I root against the Knicks (and all NY teams), he and Frazier are my next two picks in some order and open to listen to which order that should be.

One_and_Done · Post #10 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 8:52 pm

Stockton is similar to Nash in the sense that they were both white point guards who made all-star teams. That's where the similarities end. They played completely differently style wise. One was an MVP calibre player, the other was an all-star type. It's too soon to be discussing non-MVP types IMO.

Colbinii · Post #11 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:09 pm

One_and_Done wrote:Giannis gives you the lift of a Jokic type, without the huge defensive weakness. Giannis also has more longevity as a legit star, and more longevity as a whole.

Barkley haa plenty of longevity, but peak Giannis is just too much better.

"Lift" as in offensive lift?

One_and_Done · Post #12 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:12 pm

No, Giannis lift comes from both ends unlike Jokic.

Colbinii · Post #13 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:15 pm

One_and_Done wrote:No, Giannis lift comes from both ends unlike Jokic.

But is that the same lift? We have seen Giannis struggle to score and produce offense in a playoff at a high level.

Owly · Post #14 » by **Owly** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:17 pm

One_and_Done wrote:Giannis gives you the lift of a Jokic type, without the huge defensive weakness. Giannis also has more longevity as a legit star, and more longevity as a whole.

Barkley haa plenty of longevity, but peak Giannis is just too much better.

Wouldn't a "huge defensive weakness" be baked into the amount of lift given? Couldn't the sentence be flipped with "the glaring inability to make a jump shot" if we're going that simplistic?

Mileage may vary on lift depending on metric or rating methodology.

One_and_Done · Post #15 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:19 pm

We've seen Jokic get cooked in the pick and roll too. Giannis gives more RS lift, and is less attackable than Jokic is the playoffs. He showed that in 21, in 22 Middleton got hurt and he took Boston to 7 games anyway, and in 23 he was hurt. Jokic had a great year, but I'm not going to overreact to it. Let's see him do ir again next year against some better teams that can attack his weaknesses more. The 21 Suns who Giannis beat likely cook this years Nuggets for dinner.

One_and_Done · Post #16 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:22 pm

Owly wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Giannis gives you the lift of a Jokic type, without the huge defensive weakness. Giannis also has more longevity as a legit star, and more longevity as a whole.

Barkley haa plenty of longevity, but peak Giannis is just too much better.

Wouldn't a "huge defensive weakness" be baked into the amount of lift given? Couldn't the sentence be flipped with "the glaring inability to make a jump shot" if we're going that simplistic?

Mileage may vary on lift depending on metric or rating methodology.

Shaq didn't make alot of jump shots either. If you can score efficiently anyway it doesn't matter much. Giannis is a more modern Shaq on offense, but he makes you great defensively too.

Post #17 » by **trex_8063** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:24 pm

VOTE: Charles Barkley
Alternate: James Harden

Again......Barkley, I am supporting for similar reasons to why I voted for Durant previously: I've the most confidence in his combined box-production/efficiency profile, impact profile, longevity, and career accomplishment (in a tough era) of those players listed (made a little easier now that Moses is off the table [and Stockton is not yet on the table]). Giannis and Jokic simply lack the full career value for me yet (though super-close: I would say ONE prime season away for both).
Wade is a somewhat intriguing option for alternate, but he suffers a pinch from similar concerns.

However Harden, at this point, is also intriguing for me. Honestly, I think his player type [vaguely: offensive power-house, weak defensively], effective longevity, career accomplishment and accolades all closely parallel that of Charles Barkley. I consequently feel that wherever you have Barkley on your list, Harden should not be far away. Their respective careers just have too much in common, imo.

Nomination: John Stockton
Alt Nom: Patrick Ewing

70sFan · Post #18 » by **70sFan** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:36 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
Owly wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Giannis gives you the lift of a Jokic type, without the huge defensive weakness. Giannis also has more longevity as a legit star, and more longevity as a whole.

Barkley haa plenty of longevity, but peak Giannis is just too much better.

Wouldn't a "huge defensive weakness" be baked into the amount of lift given? Couldn't the sentence be flipped with "the glaring inability to make a jump shot" if we're going that simplistic?

Mileage may vary on lift depending on metric or rating methodology.

Shaq didn't make alot of jump shots either. If you can score efficiently anyway it doesn't matter much. Giannis is a more modern Shaq on offense, but he makes you great defensively too.

Unfortunately, that logic doesn't apply to someone like Moses Malone...

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #19 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:42 pm

Vote: Charles Barkley

More longevity than Jokic or Giannis(over 2x in the case of Jokic) and imo a higher peak/prime period than Wade or Harden.

Something DraymondGold said in the last thread stuck out to me:

DraymondGold wrote:Barkley lacks a standout peak, from a weaker defense or playmaking.

Barkley's peak consisted of a period where he had a 10+ rTS and 60%+ 2P for five straight seasons while rebounding at a rate unheard of for someone his size. I simply don't understand how that isn't a standout peak.

People point to Barkley's lack of playoff success, like this:

AEnigma wrote:Barkley I see as a guy who never won a title, peaked as maybe the third best player in the league, and has one legitimately impressive win as his team’s leader (1993 Sonics).

But again, almost his entire prime was spent languishing on a poor Philly team, so it's no wonder there's a a lack of impressive playoff performances. That some of those teams made the playoffs at all is a testament to Barkley's value.

Kevin Garnett coming in at #9 in this thread indicates that a lot of people here have given him the benefit of the doubt despite spending much of his prime in a bad situation. Why does Barkley not get the same benefit of the doubt?

If you don't limit it to wins, Barkley had a number of impressive playoff series during his prime.

27.6/14.7 on 62.2% FG - 1986 ECSF loss to Milwaukee
24.6/12.6 on 57.3% FG - 1987 EC1R loss to Milwaukee
27.0/11.7 on 64.4% FG - 1989 EC1R loss to New York
25.6/14.0 on 55.3% FG - 1990 EC1R win vs Cleveland
23.8/17.0 on 53.2% FG - 1990 ECSF loss to Chicago
23.7/11.0 on 52.0% FG - 1991 EC1R win vs Milwaukee
25.6/10.2 on 64.0% FG - 1991 ECSF loss to Chicago
The whole 1993 run
37.3/13.3 on 60.5% FG - 1994 WC1R win vs Golden State
33.7/13.7 on 57.4% FG - 1995 WC1R win vs Portland

I'm sure some would argue that putting up those numbers against what was in many cases first-round fodder doesn't qualify as impressive, but when you're 6'4-6'6'(depending on source) and you're primarily an inside scorer, putting up those statlines against frontlines that included Patrick Ewing/Charles Oakley, Brad Daugherty/Larry Nance, and Horace Grant/Scottie Pippen is impressive.

A 6'4' guy scoring at the volume and efficiency and rebounding at the rate with reasonable consistency in the playoffs is incredible.

I'm just getting really frustrated with this board's constant undervaluing of Sir Charles.

Secondary Vote: Nikola Jokic

Seems like this thread may come down to Jokic and Giannis and if that's the case I want Jokic higher. I think it's just a more impressive peak, given the combination of his scoring, playmaking, and rebound abilities. With the exception of that troublesome playoff on/off number, Jokic seems to come out ahead in most relevant impact metrics. Plus Jokic projects to age better because his game isn't based on freak athleticism.

Nomination: Bob Pettit

Best era-relative resume in contention for nomination at the moment.

Secondary Nomination: Patrick Ewing

Number of options here, but I think Ewing is the best combination of peak and longevity right now. Pippen is in consideration too, but I'm not sure his peak was as high as Pat's, and Kawhi peaked higher imo but lacks the longevity. Stockton in play too.

One_and_Done · Post #20 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:43 pm

Moses Malone offensive game doesn't translate today as I explained, and he'd get cooked on the perimeter. Sure, older Shaq would have some issues in that regard too. However Shaq offsets them with his world breaking levels of offense. Moses isn't giving back what you're giving up.