Career: Draymond v. Rodman

[penbeast0]

Taking the shotblocking centers out of the equation like Mutombo, Wallace, etc., how would you rate Draymond Green's career (so far) compared to that of Dennis Rodman?

[Colbinii]

Green fairly easily. Much more impactful defender and more valuable offensive piece.

[SHAQ32]

Rodman could actually guard 1-5

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[Cavsfansince84]

I was thinking about this the other day when someone asked where we place Draymond in our top 100. I was thinking does he have a strong case to be ranked ahead of Dennis and I have Dennis at about 75-80. Dennis had a prime that went from about 88-98 while playing starter minutes from 91-98. 5x titles, 2xdpoy, 7x reb champ. Draymond basically has a 9 year prime but 2 of those he played less than 50 games. I think this is basically about Draymond's playmaking skill vs Dennis off rebounding and possibly man defense. I think you can semi safely say that Draymond played a larger role in his team's 4 titles than Dennis did in any of his team's 5(it's probably close between the bottom/top). So I think on that basis you could rank him higher. If its more about longevity then I think you could argue Dennis as higher. I think I'd rank them very near to each other.

[penbeast0]

Rodman could actually guard 1-5

That's 3 video's of Rodman guarding 5's which Draymond does too (though Shaq is an unusually big load!). Any of Rodman guarding a quick PG successfully?

[Cavsfansince84]

That's 3 guarding 5's which Draymond does too (though Shaq is an unusually big load!). Any of Rodman guarding a quick PG successfully.

He was smothering MJ quite often in the late 80's who at that time was probably the quickest player in the league. That's one of the things that really stuck out when I rewatched most of the 89/90 ecf's between them. I don't think he could do that past about 92 though.

[rk2023]

Draymond can’t “guard 1-5”?

https://youtu.be/W3t5okZUIDI?si=xeEnFsbt_0MBUB9j

https://youtu.be/b2_RLlhhfF8?si=piKEdBY-VA0_sPIg

https://youtu.be/feBAhBdyMek?si=UHFo6xSLxcy94aDD

https://youtu.be/lyK4oGf_vlw?si=txlHOkpP-hKopN3M

[lessthanjake]

People forget that Rodman was actually a good passer—which was part of why he worked well in the triangle. Draymond was a better passer, but Rodman was no slouch in that regard and definitely provided tons of offensive rebounding value that Draymond doesn’t. So it’s not entirely clear to me that Draymond is a superior offensive player to Rodman.

Defensively, they’re similar, and I basically lean towards Draymond being the better defender but then you think about defensive rebounding and I’m really not sure. I think people really have overcorrected and started to kind of just ignore individual rebounding. It is very impactful!

[Jaivl]

Draymond can’t “guard 1-5”?

https://youtu.be/W3t5okZUIDI?si=xeEnFsbt_0MBUB9j

https://youtu.be/b2_RLlhhfF8?si=piKEdBY-VA0_sPIg

https://youtu.be/feBAhBdyMek?si=UHFo6xSLxcy94aDD

https://youtu.be/lyK4oGf_vlw?si=txlHOkpP-hKopN3M

"Draymond can’t “guard 1-5”?" (posts four videos of Draymond guarding 3-5)

I take Draymond fairly easily on this comparison, but Pistons Rodman is more versatile defensively than possibly anyone ever.

[kendogg]

I think Rodman is no question the better offensive player. Rodman was not a bad passer, and his offensive rebounding makes up for the difference in passing about 3 times over. Rodman is also a far better finisher.

Defensively Rodman is better at point of attack by a good margin. Also better rim protector by a giant margin. Help defense is obviously Draymond territory. But that's ONE thing he does better. Sure it might be the most impactful thing, but its still only one thing. Rodman's rebounding was immensely impactful.

[Clyde Frazier]

When it comes to elite defenders I still gravitate towards the better offensive player. Draymond > Rodman here and Mutombo > Ben Wallace for example.

Edit: missed it's for career. Will have to take a closer look at Draymond vs. Rodman being a longevity guy.

[parsnips33]

Lol Warriors were using post-prime Draymond as the primary cover on the quickest PG in the league just in these last playoffs

[rk2023]

Draymond can’t “guard 1-5”?

https://youtu.be/W3t5okZUIDI?si=xeEnFsbt_0MBUB9j

https://youtu.be/b2_RLlhhfF8?si=piKEdBY-VA0_sPIg

https://youtu.be/feBAhBdyMek?si=UHFo6xSLxcy94aDD

https://youtu.be/lyK4oGf_vlw?si=txlHOkpP-hKopN3M

"Draymond can’t “guard 1-5”?" (posts four videos of Draymond guarding 3-5)

I take Draymond fairly easily on this comparison, but Pistons Rodman is more versatile defensively than possibly anyone ever.

He technically shut off Lillard’s water

[Colbinii]

I think Rodman is no question the better offensive player. Rodman was not a bad passer, and his offensive rebounding makes up for the difference in passing about 3 times over. Rodman is also a far better finisher.

Defensively Rodman is better at point of attack by a good margin. Also better rim protector by a giant margin. Help defense is obviously Draymond territory. But that's ONE thing he does better. Sure it might be the most impactful thing, but its still only one thing. Rodman's rebounding was immensely impactful.

Rodman is not a better rim protector than Draymond. That's a wild take with no statistical or film backing.

[kendogg]

I think Rodman is no question the better offensive player. Rodman was not a bad passer, and his offensive rebounding makes up for the difference in passing about 3 times over. Rodman is also a far better finisher.

Defensively Rodman is better at point of attack by a good margin. Also better rim protector by a giant margin. Help defense is obviously Draymond territory. But that's ONE thing he does better. Sure it might be the most impactful thing, but its still only one thing. Rodman's rebounding was immensely impactful.

Rodman is not a better rim protector than Draymond. That's a wild take with no statistical or film backing.

Rebounding is a part of rim protection in my book. And Draymond an average rebounder (not even good) while Rodman is one of the best all time. Neither is a great shot blocker but Rodman is far more likely to actually block a shot at the rim. All of Draymonds blocks are low blocks or slap downs. He doesn't have the size or lift to actually block an apex shot.

As mentioned in the other thread, Draymond has a great opposing FG% at the rim as closest defender, but that is a loaded statistic because Draymond's is a help defender and in those situations he is NOT the closest defender in the majority of cases. The greatest impact of a rim protector is weakside shotblocking and neither of them offer that. Both of them are actually superb at getting a hand in the face, though. The only difference is that Rodman was not as aggressive helping because he was asked to be their primary rebounder. That is more of a tactical difference than a skill difference, but I think most will concede that all things even Dray is still the far better help defender in terms of IQ and timing. But help defense and rim protection are NOT the same thing.

But if rebounding is agreed to be a part of rim protection its really no contest. Rodman is at least a tier if not 2 tiers ahead.

[Owly]

When it comes to elite defenders I still gravitate towards the better offensive player. Draymond > Rodman here and Mutombo > Ben Wallace for example.

The thing is, even accepting that methodology ... whilst the box may say one thing ... one Mutombo versus Wallace impact stuff flips the script. Mutombo positive scoring efficiency at higher volumes ... maybe Wallace having the ball less helps, maybe more active setting screens? Though I've heard both liked their touches (more explicit with Mutombo, with Wallace it's more - as I remember it ... Brown rewarding him with touches?). I don't know

Rodman too, I think in the bits of impact stuff is more offense tilted than expected. Though that's likely later career where defense is less consistently a priority.


To some other general kicked around stuff ...
Iongevity/ "good year" counting
I ding Rodman heavily for '95 (to a lesser degree) for what amounted to a one man mutiny. To a lesser degree in '94 he just didn't care about playoff suspensions. It's one of those cases where the basketball is largely good but you can't rely on it being there due to mentality or suspensions.

1-5 defense
No one's really optimally used in that way so it's limited how much it's going to be tested. I would say the Rodman who covered Shaq for Chicago and the Rodman who might do some plays on Jordan are different guys so that 2-5, in terms of what's been argued so far, isn't really at any one time. Maybe we could argue Shaq's so big he's a 6? (It is still Orlando Shaq though)

[HeartBreakKid]

few years ago I had Green ranked at 71 and Rodman 87.

I think the way Green takes over games especially in playoff series is quite impressive. He did it in series where Curry wasn't available so it's not really true that he is useless without him.

[cupcakesnake]

People forget that Rodman was actually a good passer—which was part of why he worked well in the triangle. Draymond was a better passer, but Rodman was no slouch in that regard and definitely provided tons of offensive rebounding value that Draymond doesn’t. So it’s not entirely clear to me that Draymond is a superior offensive player to Rodman.

Defensively, they’re similar, and I basically lean towards Draymond being the better defender but then you think about defensive rebounding and I’m really not sure. I think people really have overcorrected and started to kind of just ignore individual rebounding. It is very impactful!

I think there's a massive gap between Draymond and Rodman's passing. Not only is Draymond better in that high post hub role that Rodman played in the triangle, but Draymond can actually dribble and therefor access a way broader range of dynamic passes. Dennis was a willing and able connector. He was able to track cutters, plan his pass in advance, and make really quick decisions. He could make nice touch passes and throw that two-handle over the head pass. But Draymond can do all those things, and by my eye, he's better at squeezing the pass through smaller windows. When I watch Rodman footage, he's often hitting wide open cutters. Draymond has a pocket pass and it better at getting the ball to cutters who still look guarded.

Now neither are scoring threats so that limits both their passing in a major way. But Draymond is better at tricking the defense into reacting to his scoring threat with his super aggressive drives to the basket (even though the man is barely a threat to hit a layup lol). His dribbling and aggression opens up more passing opportunities, not to mention how dynamic he was in transition.

I know some of Draymond's gaudy assists numbers are due to his rare role on a rare roster. But I still picture parallel universe Draymond slogging things out on mediocre teams and averaging 5apg.

(I definitely agree with the idea of Rodman's offensive rebounding being more valuable than Draymond's passing though).

Defensively, I think Draymond is better than Rodman. Both are great man defenders with ridiculous strength, Rodman is twitchier and lighter on his feet. But I've never felt Rodman was special as a help defender, where I feel Draymond is super elite in this much more important area.

[parsnips33]

I think Rodman is no question the better offensive player. Rodman was not a bad passer, and his offensive rebounding makes up for the difference in passing about 3 times over. Rodman is also a far better finisher.

Defensively Rodman is better at point of attack by a good margin. Also better rim protector by a giant margin. Help defense is obviously Draymond territory. But that's ONE thing he does better. Sure it might be the most impactful thing, but its still only one thing. Rodman's rebounding was immensely impactful.

Rodman is not a better rim protector than Draymond. That's a wild take with no statistical or film backing.

Rebounding is a part of rim protection in my book. And Draymond an average rebounder (not even good) while Rodman is one of the best all time. Neither is a great shot blocker but Rodman is far more likely to actually block a shot at the rim. All of Draymonds blocks are low blocks or slap downs. He doesn't have the size or lift to actually block an apex shot.

As mentioned in the other thread, Draymond has a great opposing FG% at the rim as closest defender, but that is a loaded statistic because Draymond's is a help defender and in those situations he is NOT the closest defender in the majority of cases. The greatest impact of a rim protector is weakside shotblocking and neither of them offer that. Both of them are actually superb at getting a hand in the face, though. The only difference is that Rodman was not as aggressive helping because he was asked to be their primary rebounder. That is more of a tactical difference than a skill difference, but I think most will concede that all things even Dray is still the far better help defender in terms of IQ and timing. But help defense and rim protection are NOT the same thing.

But if rebounding is agreed to be a part of rim protection its really no contest. Rodman is at least a tier if not 2 tiers ahead.

Why would rebounding be considered a part of rim protection? Am I missing something?

[cupcakesnake]

I think Rodman is no question the better offensive player. Rodman was not a bad passer, and his offensive rebounding makes up for the difference in passing about 3 times over. Rodman is also a far better finisher.

Defensively Rodman is better at point of attack by a good margin. Also better rim protector by a giant margin. Help defense is obviously Draymond territory. But that's ONE thing he does better. Sure it might be the most impactful thing, but its still only one thing. Rodman's rebounding was immensely impactful.

Rodman is not a better rim protector than Draymond. That's a wild take with no statistical or film backing.

Rebounding is a part of rim protection in my book. And Draymond an average rebounder (not even good) while Rodman is one of the best all time. Neither is a great shot blocker but Rodman is far more likely to actually block a shot at the rim. All of Draymonds blocks are low blocks or slap downs. He doesn't have the size or lift to actually block an apex shot.

As mentioned in the other thread, Draymond has a great opposing FG% at the rim as closest defender, but that is a loaded statistic because Draymond's is a help defender and in those situations he is NOT the closest defender in the majority of cases. The greatest impact of a rim protector is weakside shotblocking and neither of them offer that. Both of them are actually superb at getting a hand in the face, though. The only difference is that Rodman was not as aggressive helping because he was asked to be their primary rebounder. That is more of a tactical difference than a skill difference, but I think most will concede that all things even Dray is still the far better help defender in terms of IQ and timing. But help defense and rim protection are NOT the same thing.

But if rebounding is agreed to be a part of rim protection its really no contest. Rodman is at least a tier if not 2 tiers ahead.

You trying to establish definitions of things is really confusing in this post.
I'm not sure what you mean by "rebounding is a part of rim protection" and "help defense and rim protection are NOT the same thing."

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never heard rebounding being called rim protection, and I've never heard anyone say that rim protection is completely seperate from help defense. Help defense is a broad category that includes any defensive play made against the ball when it's not your man-defensive assignment (switching being an exception to this murky definition). Digging, doubling, showing, help & recover, weakside rim protection, stunting in the halfcourt... are all things on a long list of things I'd call "help defense".

One thing that's pretty objective. Draymond blocks way more than Rodman does. Almost double the amount. The block numbers aside, Draymond is a much better at positioning himself to be a rim deterrent, and has much better verticality. I've seen Worm make a ton of athletic plays as a rim protector but it wasn't a consistent part of his defensive package.