Pelly24 wrote:MyUniBroDavis wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:Lebron would be the better athlete across multiple sports. But in terms of functional athleticism throughout a 5-year prime in basketball? You could argue Jordan, because Jordan is a better short-area athlete, and basketball naturally takes place in close quarters. Jordan has better short area quickness and burst. Jordan is the only guy at 6'6 who gets put in talks for GOAT first step, as he was especially outlier here. Jordan also can elevate better off 2 without much of a gather. Lebron largely specializes in 1-foot leaping. Jordan also has better stamina/motor I would say outside of 2009 Lebron. Jordan arguably has better body-control, and has has more flexibility in contorting his body in different shapes to finish, or attack off the dribble. Jordan decelerated, changes gears, and has better change of direction. Jordan also probably has better hand-eye coordination, I might argue based on his shooting prowess, and he is doing this with bigger hands than Lebron I believe.
NBA trainer PJF performance considers MJ the best NBa athlete ever for instance eve at the 18 sec mark for example:
https://youtu.be/NrIsUh7Y3K0?si=jW3_7-P5p_IAGZO8
Lebron primarily jumps off of one foot but he absolutely can jump off of two lol
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At about 1:45, he clearly gets his head to the rim there. He’s not as good as he is off of one, and you jump off of two more for stability in the air and absorbing contact which doesn’t matter as much when ur lebron and people bounce off of you lol
I love PJF, but he’s clearly talking more about athleticism from a movement standpoint which is fair, if they were both the same weight and height I’d probably pick Jordan, but they aren’t lol.
We’re comparing a 09 or 10 bron to young Jordan, not Miami or second stint Cleveland lebron.
Basketball athleticism sure Jordan is amazing but lebron moving the way he did 60 pounds bigger is far more impressive lol.
I don’t rate that version of lebron as highly as some others on here but athletically he was about as explosive and 50-60 pounds heavier, that level of strength different is ridiculous
Jordan had better general movement quality (deceleration and change of direction) and flexibility than lebron
Lebron likely jumped higher, was taller, and had 60 pounds on him
Jordan iirc got measured at UNC in college with a 45.7 inch max vert (full running start no ball, so different from the nba combines test which is 2 steps) and a 41 inch vert with the ball.
Young bron certainly could beat those marks I’d think, iirc the Powerade dunk contest at the all American game out of highschool he probably hit 46 inches on his second dunk which was an oop to himself anyways
The 60 pounds is a pretty big deal here
FWIW, I think it's a draw between young LeBron and young MJ. I do think MJ jumped higher from a standstill than LeBron because of his superior two-foot leaping ability. And his first step was still a little better than young LeBron's, and he was still far more flexible. But LeBron's top speed and max bounce is probably about the same, and that 40-50 pounds he had on MJ while still being elite in body control, first step and dexterity and bounce is amazing. People underrate LeBron's body control in the air and on the ground. I think 2013-2018, or even 2020 LeBron is more athletic than 1996-1998 MJ, easily.
Movement is very important, if you can't move fluidly you can't be a GOAT-level athlete IMO. LeBron and MJ are two athletes who had it *all*. I think LeBron, MJ, Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson are like the best all-around athletes I can think of, that I remember seeing.
I’m not against the idea that movement isn’t incredibly important or that MJ in general was a bit better in that regard overall that bron, but I think the 60 pound difference is a big deal here
Jordan from what I can see, came in the league under 200 pounds and was about that range in his first three peat
Bron came in at 245, and hit the low 260s (rumored 274 iirc) in his last years in the first Cleveland stint
Like we’re talking about the weight difference between like, Embiid and westbrook at that point
In terms of their jumps
Per the UNC study, MJs measurements are, rounded up slightly
Standing vert > 36 inches
Max running vert > 46 inches
Max vert with ball > 42 inches
Again, it’s pretty important to say that the max vert a are off a running start, nba combine verts are measured off a 15 foot approach, which usually ends up being 2.5 steps (for a two foot jump, it’s step, plant, takeoff, for a one foot jump, it’s a lunge start, step, takeoff).
For example, lavine is a one foot jumper and only had a 41 inch max vert, but in team testing adding one more step (so 3 full steps) brought it up to 46 inches.
In terms of young bron, this would be thre closest comparison since this is high school bron
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At 3:39, he does a self oop, if you try to pause right before he flushes it, he got about half his head above the rim
He was 6ft7 barefoot (this was March, he measured 6ft7.25 barefoot in the combine and obv he grew afterwards), so probably 6ft8 in shoes, so it’s 40 inches for him to get his head at the rim, and I think it’s pretty easy to say even being conservative he probably got more than a few inches or more above the rim.
Of course, it’s off a self alley oop too, so his real max vert would be a lot higher.
There’s a video called bron highest jump ever, it’s not necessarily equivalent to what his max vert would be because he was a bit crooked and of course jumping to get the ball is different from jumping to reach a highest point, but the approach is closer to a max jump.
Again, in game so the angles aren’t gonna be perfect, but given his head is above the rim at least and he’s leaning to the right with his head turned to the left, you’re probably looking at somewhere in the mid 40s as well.
There’s a layup against Boston somewhere that’s on Instagram, the angle is a bit odd but it would be surprising if he wasnt a few inches above the rim there either
https://m.facebook.com/the.buzz.nba/photos/a.433893786718070/5601334096640654/?type=3Of course we’re talking about only a few inches here but I’d be really surprised if brons absolute max vert wasn’t in the upper 40s in those early Cleveland years
Jordan’s max vert was measured as his one foot, based on how the study was titled “Jordan vertical jump” I’d have to assume his vert was higher off one (which makes sense of course)
Jordan didn’t need to have that much speed to get up really high, but I’d wager bron had a higher max vert.
Standing vert, we don’t have any measurement for bron a 36 is solid, but if just be suprised if bron wasn’t at least close to that. 36 is a pretty fantastic mark but it’s more like, a typical best of draft class mark rather than an outlier
Jordan’s vert:
https://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.1999.29.1.A1^
Go to PO-30
For the most part, I think his Jordan probably had a bit of an edge in first step and a bigger one in deceleration/mobility, but I find brons attributes in this regard far more impressive given the strength difference. I think had it been 10-20 pounds I would lean jordan, but we’re talking about A guy heavier than a center vs a guy lighter than most shooting guards, jordan from what I found was 200 pounds earlier in his career, whereas if you go to 2009 bron weight it’ll generally be 260-270 with the measurement rumored to be 274. He’s closer to weight to rookie Shaq than to jordan lol