How big of an upset were the Suns over the Lakers in ‘90?

1993Playoffs · Post #1 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:30 am

As it happened was it a huge deal?

Seeing as the lakers were in the finals the year before, and still had the showtime reputation.

Wonder how far they could’ve gone with Barkley added some how

giberish · Post #2 » by **giberish** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:56 am

On one hand, I believe that the Suns actually led the WC in regular season SRS that year. So from a statistical standpoint, it really wasn't much of an upset.

On the other hand, anyone in the WC beating the Lakers in the playoffs was seen as a huge upset, and to a casual fan it certainly felt like a huge upset. It certainly helped Portland make the finals as they had a huge mental block against the Lakers (as shown by their horrible play in the 1991 WCF) while the Suns were just one of the other good but non-Laker WC teams that they could beat.

I guess the one thing mitigating how big of an upset that it felt like was that Detroit was considered the clear title favorite regardless of who they faced in the finals. So it didn't really feel like it made a difference as far as who won the title.

homecourtloss · Post #3 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:32 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:As it happened was it a huge deal?

Seeing as the lakers were in the finals the year before, and still had the showtime reputation.

Wonder how far they could’ve gone with Barkley added some how

At the time, people didn’t talk about SRS and rarely even MOV, but people knew the Suns were good, but they felt that that they were a regular season tiger (fuzzy memories of watching the series as a teen). Also, instead of looking at SRS/NRtg/MOV, people looked at wins and saw a 9 win difference in 1900 and a peak offensive Magic Johnson. People did know that it was difficult to play in that old Phoenix Memorial Coliseum and in the 1989 regular season, the Suns blew out the Lakers in games played there while getting beaten up at the Forum. Then the playoffs happened and the Suns lost two close games at the Forum (losing both 4th quarters), lost a close game 3, and then were swept.

In 1990, since the Lakers had home court and were a 63 win team (won many close games and exceed ped the expected PYTH wins by 5 games), people thought the same would happen because, well, the Lakers never lost in playoffs before the finals other than in 1986, and because the Suns had again lost three of the four games played vs. the Lakers in the regular season, all close games. But this time, the Suns won a close game 1 at the Forum, and a close game 5. One of the interesting things about the 1990 series was that Worthy and Scott didn’t score well like they had in 1989, so Magic went into scoring mode and had an incredible series showcasing the full arsenal of his offensive repertoire.

Looking back, nobody should have been surprised.

1989: 2nd in SRS, 2nd in NRtg, 1st in MOV, 2nd in ORtg
1990: 1st in SRS, 2nd in NRtg, 1st in MOV, 3rd in ORtg

Also, the Suns lost a bunch of close games in 1990 (54 wins, 58 expected PYTH wins) and the same happened in the WCF vs. the Blazers as they lost three very close game including blowing an 18 point halftime lead in game 2. Sansterre wrote about them in his greatest teams list.

sansterre wrote:
#96. The 1990 Phoenix Suns
Spoiler:
Overall SRS: +8.26, Standard Deviations: +1.63, Lost in Conference Finals

Regular Season Record: 54-28, Regular Season SRS: +7.09 (44th), Earned a 5 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +5.0 (30th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -1.9 (74th)

PG: Kevin Johnson (23), +5.0 / +6.1
SG: Jeff Hornacek (26), +4.6 / +4.1
SF: Dan Majerle (24), +1.3 / +4.5
PF: Tom Chambers (30), +2.3 / -0.5
C: Mark West (29), +1.4 / +1.0
6th: Eddie Johnson (30), -0.9 / +2.3

Usage: Tom Chambers (28.8%), Eddie Johnson (25.2%), Kevin Johnson (25.0%)
Scoring/100: Tom Chambers (34.5 / +4.2%), Kevin Johnson (28.5 / +4.8%), Eddie Johnson (28.4 / +0.5%)
Assists/100: Kevin Johnson (14.5), Jeff Hornacek (7.1), Dan Majerle (4.0)

Heliocentrism: 27.1% (66th of 81 teams)
Wingmen: 39.2% (35th)
Depth: 34.7% (22nd)

Playoff Offensive Rating: +4.97 (55th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -4.23 (67th)
Playoff SRS: +9.12 (79th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +1.17 (77th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +3.43 (14th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.57 (37th)

Round 1: Utah Jazz (+4.8), won 3-2 by +1.4 points per game (+6.2 SRS eq)
Round 2: Los Angeles Lakers (+7.4), won 4-1 by +1.6 points per game (+9.0 SRS eq)
Round 3: Portland Trail Blazers (+5.9), lost 4-2 by +5.7 points per game (+11.6 SRS eq)
Round 4:

Bet this wasn’t the edition of the early 90s Suns you expected to see make this list, huh?

This roster (the ‘90 edition) didn’t have Charles Barkley but it did have Kevin Johnson at his peak (which was only two years, ‘90 and ‘91 - injuries derailed a potentially amazing career). KJ didn’t have much shooting range but he attacked the basket like a boss, finishing in the top ten of free throws attempted frequently and shooting 84% while he was there. The 1990 Suns had an excellent offense (which continued to be excellent in the postseason) and KJ was the main cog in that machine, backing up his penetration with excellent passing (if fairly high turnovers). Tom Chambers did most of the scoring for the team (and was pretty good at it too) though he didn’t add a lot past scoring. Mark West provided a solid shot blocker and rebounder (4.3 Block%, 10.4 OReb%) who only took efficient shots (+11.9% true shooting on only 17.1 points per 100). In that he didn’t shoot much but rebounded and defended very well, West was the ideal complement to Chambers (literally the opposite in every way). Jeff Hornacek provided efficient shooting with good passing for a shooting guard, while Dan Majerle (not yet “Thunder” Dan who Jordan would take very personal in 1993) mostly added offensive rebounding and defense. This was a really good offensive team, with the 5th best shooting in the league (out of 27) and 2nd best at getting to the line, but also played strong defense (6th in opposing shooting and 2nd in preventing free throws). Their record may have been underwhelming, but they had the best regular season SRS in the entire league, and the 2nd best playoff (and overall) SRS behind only the eventual champion Pistons.

Note, by the way, that the Suns’ playoff run was littered with strong teams (the weakest was +4.8 Utah). After making it past Utah (for a team with two infamous “chokers” Utah sure had a habit of playing teams tough in the postseason) on a marginal +1.4 points per game the Suns matched up with Magic Johnson’s Lakers (who were the 1 seed, and won the West both the year before and the year after this matchup, both teams on this list). And the year before, the ‘89 Lakers had bounced the Suns in the Conference Finals to the tune of 5.5 points per game. It was time for a rematch.

If series were determined by the play of their best player then the Lakers would have won, as Magic spun a masterful 30/6/12 at +7.9% efficiency; KJ’s 22/6/11 at +2.5% with 3 steals didn’t really compete. But Byron Scott shot just below league average and Worthy shot far worse (-8.5%), while Jeff Hornacek had a quietly excellent series of 21/3/4 at +9.2% efficiency and the Suns snuck by the Lakers by 1.6 points per game. The Suns advanced to face the Blazers in the Conference Finals.

In that matchup Portland racked up a massive advantage in shots, taking more than 6 shooting possessions a game more than the Suns; the Blazers had almost 4 more steals a game and had a solid advantage on the boards, despite having nobody with minutes post double-digit OReb%. Can I just point out how weird it is that the Blazers, a team whose best known players are guards (Drexler and Porter) always seem to beat other teams on the glass?

Anyhow. The Suns countered with considerably superior shooting. While Kersey shot at league average Drexler shot at -5.3%; for the Suns, Tom Chambers got to the line almost at will and most of their offense shot comfortably above league average. The shooting advantage was enough that the Suns were able to outscore the Blazers by a considerable margin, 5.5 points per game. And so in the NBA Finals . . .

Wait, the Suns *lost* despite a 5.5 point margin of victory? What the crap? The Suns two wins were by 34 and 12 points, while the Blazers four wins were by 6, 3, 2 and 1 point. I’m sorry, I’m fairly sure that the Suns were the better team there. But sometimes the better team loses, the Suns’ season ended and the Blazers went on to get clowned by the ‘90 Pistons. So that’s something.

Sometimes you get teams like the ‘95 Rockets, that have a low seed but battle through it to win the Finals. But most of the time it’s like the ‘90 Suns; your average opponent is +6 SRS and you end up falling to a good team, despite being the best team in the conference. This was one of Kevin Johnson’s two great years running the offense before starting to slow down. I wish he’d gotten to do more.

Modern Comps:

PG: 2013 Kyle Lowry (worse on defense, better on offense)
SG: 2015 Danny Green
SF: 2011 Luc Mbah a Moute
PF: 2010 Amare Stoudamire, better passer, worse shooter
C: 2020 Dwight Howard, with worse rebounding but starting all year
6th: 2017 Harrison Barnes

No star piece here, but it’s a nice roster. 2020 Howard is the quintessential dunker that West was (high rebounding, high blocks, super-high efficiency, super-low number of shots). The offense runs through Lowry and Amare with Danny Green being the really nice third option on both sides. I have to say, this project has made me come to appreciate Jeff Hornacek (and those of his ilk). If he’s your #1 you’re in trouble, but if he’s your #3 you’re going to have a very nice offense. He had nice spacing, nice scoring, quality passing (above 20% assists for every year but one) for a third option and racked up impressive steals numbers for most of his career. I just feel like Hornacek keeps showing up as the third option on some really good offenses, sort of like Danny Green was one of San Antonio’s roster of old-man Duncan, young-Kawhi and no-names that quietly crushed everyone in the middle of the decade.

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rk2023 · Post #4 » by **rk2023** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:16 pm

Very condemnable individual off the court of play, but younger Kevin Johnson was a very good offensive player. Did he have great talent around him? Sure. Regardless, he was engining very formidable team offenses before Barkley even came along.

giberish · Post #5 » by **giberish** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:16 pm

One of the interesting things about the 1990 series was that Worthy and Scott didn’t score well like they had in 1989, so Magic went into scoring mode and had an incredible series showcasing the full arsenal of his offensive repertoire.

That had a lot to do with the Suns defensive strategy. The Lakers often had a big size mismatch inside with Magic against KJ or Horny. Normally teams would bring aggressive help defense against that - letting Magic pick them apart passing from the post (much like modern Jokic). Instead Phoenix concentrated on covering everybody else and forced Magic to beat them scoring. While he hit his career playoff high scoring totals twice in the series by keeping Worthy, Scott and the rest of the Lakers from getting easier shots they were able to slow down the Lakers offense just enough to win (the Lakers also had defensive issues against the quickness of the Suns guards).

1993Playoffs · Post #6 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:47 pm

giberish wrote:One of the interesting things about the 1990 series was that Worthy and Scott didn’t score well like they had in 1989, so Magic went into scoring mode and had an incredible series showcasing the full arsenal of his offensive repertoire.

That had a lot to do with the Suns defensive strategy. The Lakers often had a big size mismatch inside with Magic against KJ or Horny. Normally teams would bring aggressive help defense against that - letting Magic pick them apart passing from the post (much like modern Jokic). Instead Phoenix concentrated on covering everybody else and forced Magic to beat them scoring. While he hit his career playoff high scoring totals twice in the series by keeping Worthy, Scott and the rest of the Lakers from getting easier shots they were able to slow down the Lakers offense just enough to win (the Lakers also had defensive issues against the quickness of the Suns guards).

Hypothetically do you see with the addition of Barkley them challenging Detroit? That was a pretty talented team

giberish · Post #7 » by **giberish** » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:44 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:
giberish wrote:One of the interesting things about the 1990 series was that Worthy and Scott didn’t score well like they had in 1989, so Magic went into scoring mode and had an incredible series showcasing the full arsenal of his offensive repertoire.

That had a lot to do with the Suns defensive strategy. The Lakers often had a big size mismatch inside with Magic against KJ or Horny. Normally teams would bring aggressive help defense against that - letting Magic pick them apart passing from the post (much like modern Jokic). Instead Phoenix concentrated on covering everybody else and forced Magic to beat them scoring. While he hit his career playoff high scoring totals twice in the series by keeping Worthy, Scott and the rest of the Lakers from getting easier shots they were able to slow down the Lakers offense just enough to win (the Lakers also had defensive issues against the quickness of the Suns guards).

Hypothetically do you see with the addition of Barkley them challenging Detroit? That was a pretty talented team

I don't really worry about it. Barkley wasn't remotely available at the time. Phoenix wouldn't just get him for free, they'd have to give up a lot to get him at that time - much more than they did 3 years later. So maybe they're down to KJ, Barkely and complete scrubs.

homecourtloss · Post #8 » by **homecourtloss** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:45 pm

giberish wrote:One of the interesting things about the 1990 series was that Worthy and Scott didn’t score well like they had in 1989, so Magic went into scoring mode and had an incredible series showcasing the full arsenal of his offensive repertoire.

That had a lot to do with the Suns defensive strategy. The Lakers often had a big size mismatch inside with Magic against KJ or Horny. Normally teams would bring aggressive help defense against that - letting Magic pick them apart passing from the post (much like modern Jokic). Instead Phoenix concentrated on covering everybody else and forced Magic to beat them scoring. While he hit his career playoff high scoring totals twice in the series by keeping Worthy, Scott and the rest of the Lakers from getting easier shots they were able to slow down the Lakers offense just enough to win (the Lakers also had defensive issues against the quickness of the Suns guards).

Yes, they did play Magic and the Lakers differently, and it shows in how many fewer FTs shot, but also a lot had to do with Scott missing many open jumpers and Worthy not playing well.

Here’s highlights of Magic’s game 4 and game 5 in which he shows off the entire offensive repertoire and incredible feel for the game. At 5:20, you hear Verne Lundquist say “finally gets one to fall,” about Byron Scott jumper.

Watch on YouTube

Just game 4:

Watch on YouTube

This video was posted by

70sFan wrote:

, and I believe he either made a thread or a post about arguing how 1990 might be peak offensive Magic with worse defense and about how this wasn’t the Showtime Lakers anymore but an all time season long peak offensive performance from Magic to get that ORtg, but I may be misremembering.

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:53 pm

homecourtloss wrote:I believe he either made a thread or a post about arguing how 1990 might be peak offensive Magic with worse defense and about how this wasn’t the Showtime Lakers anymore but an all time season long peak offensive performance from Magic to get that ORtg, but I may be misremembering.

I don't remember if I made such thread, but I definitely agree with that. Lakers stopped playing their fastbreak Showtime style in that season and they started relying on Magic more than ever before - the results were outstanding as well. I think 1990 Magic might be the best offensive player ever (with very few players approaching that level), the way he controlled the game was untouchable at that point. His post game became also more refined than ever, which combined with his shooting improvement turned him into the perfect offensive anchor basically.

Post #10 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 2:09 pm

1990 definitely wasnt Showtime.

No Kareem and they were 20th of 27 teams in pace.

KJ and Horny messed them up and Mark West was a big deal.Chambers scored a lot on trash efficiency. Worthy was horrific. Scott didnt score enough (and some kf the why has already been discussed). Coop sucked and it wasnt like Woolridge, Thompson or rookie Vlade were going to pick up the slack. Phoenix was a 54-win team with the third-best O in the league and LA couldnt keep up eith how they forced gameplan on them

Magic ripped them apart for 30/12 and even dropped 43 in both kf the last two games but as with Jordan before Pip and Grant got going, a one-man show goes only so far.

Worthy was egregiously bad in the last 2 games, shooting 10/40 over them (this after 9/26 in game 1). You can't win when your second guy hoists that sort of garbage and you've no other support, not against a good team.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #11 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:19 pm

As bad as Magic's teammates were I think you have to factor in the 3 straight finals and 7 of the last 8. I think it gets harder for guys to get up for every playoff series after that sort of grind. I think 3 finals in a row is sort of a big deal for players in terms of being able to stay mentally focused and not wear down as a result. Teams lose focus and all of that. Suddenly the idea of going home a week early doesn't seem so bad after you've won titles(probably more so as a role player) after an 82 game season.