RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #28 (Charles Barkley)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 3:56 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Charles Barkley

Patrick Ewing

James Harden

Bob Pettit

Scottie Pippen

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:20 pm

Vote Ewing: Strong defender, team leader, scorer, good durability, some playoff failures. Much as I root against the Knicks (and all NY teams), his excellent defense gives him extra value over the better offensive players like Barkley, Harden, and even Pettit. And, he could be a valuable 2nd or 3rd option where the great scorers frequently lose a lot of their value if asked to dial back their scoring to help the team.

Alternate Pettit: Far from convinced that Pettit is the best here but I have a hard time voting for Barkley or Harden with all the baggage they bring. I could easily have voted Harden/Ewing here. f4p did a nice job making his case but if I'm starting a team in any era other than the modern one, bigs have disproportionate defensive impact (and that's why I have Ewing/Pettit/Harden and soon hopefully Stockton over Barkley).

Nomination: Stockton: Similar to Steve Nash, better in set plays, less outstanding when required to improvise, equivalent shooter on near equivalent volume, far superior defender, strong durability edge. Issues with playoff performances are his biggest weakness as I don't think a player is automatically just a role player if he doesn't score 20 ppg.

Frazier: Efficient scorer, arguably GOAT guard defender, team leader, ran a widely admired (though not super efficient) offense, good playoffs, great finals. The two strikes against him are a relatively short prime/career, and being from the weaker 1970s era.

iggymcfrack · Post #3 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 4:54 pm

Vote: Barkley
Probably best peak and longevity of the currently nominated candidates. Seems comfortably ahead of the remaining nominees.

Nominate: Stockton
Just #4 all-time in VORP and top 10 over 25 years of multiple year RAPM in his decline years at an age where only 3 or 4 players in NBA history played at a star level.

AEnigma · Post #4 » by **AEnigma** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:24 pm

VOTE: James Harden
NOMINATE: Reggie Miller
In a stretch where the overall order matters minimally to me. For my vote, F4p did a good job of making Harden’s case, and with Wade in, Harden can take his place as the top guard on the board.

Again I expect Barkley to win… but that was the expectation the prior two times, and one of his voters is gone. I see him as comparable to Harden and Ewing, although I am more impressed by Harden’s production in a better league. I prefer Ewing’s peak, and I prefer Ewing’s archetype because I think Barkley’s poor positional defence makes for easier team-building around Ewing. However, I will not deny that Barkley has more useful years to his name and stronger prime bookends. Various impact indicators read as relative draws to me: similar in PIPM wins, similar in extended on/off measures, similar in R-WOWY (advantage to Barkley), similar in GPM / WOWYR… Ewing probably more successful in the postseason but also had a significant coaching advantage.

I am less impressed by Pettit, but he was an era standout, so no real objections whenever he is admitted.

For nominations, we have arrived at the extended all-NBA prime tier. I think Miller is the most reliable postseason option, but I can entertain career arguments now for Stockton, Havlicek… maybe Gilmore… The alternatives are Barry and Frazier. The latter I have behind Barry and Havlicek for longevity reasons. Barry versus Havlicek has always been a fun topic, with Barry offering a superior peak but Havlicek offering a more consistent prime and better complementarity with others. Havlicek does not win the 1975 title; nevertheless, put in Barry’s place for a decade, I could envision him matching or exceeding that accomplishment. In their time, both stood out more than Miller, but Miller’s decade of offensive brilliance in the postseason is too much for me to overlook.

HeartBreakKid · Post #5 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:10 pm

My vote is for Bob Pettit - I have him and Barkley pretty close to each other. I can't really think of many bad things to say about Pettit, but I can think of a few things to say about Barkley.

I think Bob shared his career with some real titans just as Chuck did and more than held his own, just like Chuck did. I have very little doubt about Pettit's playing ability, and while he isn't the hyper efficient scoring beast chuck is, I do think he is the type of guy that can do what is needed when it is called.

Alternate vote is for Patrick Ewing - Very close between him and Bob, I could be swayed to give Patrick the #1 vote. Chuck is right up there with them but my gut feeling tells me the other two were better.

My nomination is for Kawhi Leonard - At two different points he was an awesome defender and an awesome scorer. His health and priorities never made them line up at least not for a long time, but I think his dominance as a scorer and defender depending on the year is truly special.

My alternate nomination is for Walt Frazier - As you could likely tell with the 3 other players I gave votes too (Jokic, Wade, Leonard) I am not much of a longevity guy, which leads a perfect excuse to give Frazier an alternate nomination. I really love watching him play, seems to be the type of guy who would have benefited a lot from impact stats. He was in a system that suppressed his APG because it does seem like to me he is a "pass first" type of PG. Great shooter, legendary defender, was the best player on 1 if not 2 championship teams (over Reed which is no small task). Actually I think the Knicks trifecta of Ewing/Reed/Frazier is very hard to find separation between them, albeit Ewing obviously was a lot healthier in comparison. I think lack of meaningful data to analyze Frazier's defense and passing ability hurts him and prevents him from going higher, but with the level of players left I think he is not a terrible pick if longevity is not a crutch.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #6 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:22 pm

Vote: Barkley

Same reasons as always. Scoring, rebounding, peak.

Secondary Vote: Pettit

Same reasons as always. Best era-relative case.

Nomination: John Stockton

Same reasons as always - two-way play, impact metrics, longevity.

Secondary Nomination: Kawhi

Highest peak of those currently being considered.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #7 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:26 pm

Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Post #8 » by **penbeast0** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:29 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Those of us pushing Stockton's nomination (which I realize include you) feel similarly. It's part of the project.

Samurai · Post #9 » by **Samurai** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:30 pm

Vote for #28: Bob Pettit. To state this upfront: I do not care about science fiction time machines whisking Pettit to 1923, 2023 or 2123. In fact, the sci-fi crowd still hasn't convinced me at all that such a time machine even exists. His era was also the weakest of the candidates currently eligible, which is why I am considering him now rather than earlier spots. He was a 2-time MVP and 10-time All NBA First Team and Second Team once. I will also concede that I never saw him play live. But his adaptability is extremely impressive to me. His first season was 1955 and Neil Johnston was the big star then (a broken-down Mikan came out of retirement to play 37 games in 56). But by 1964, Pettit's second to last season, he was competing against the likes of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Lucas and Havlicek. The league strength was much higher in 1964 than 1955 and yet Pettit was still All NBA First Team in 64. He was the bridge from the Mikan era to the Russell/Wilt/Oscar/West era and he was elite in both eras. He doesn't strike me as a flashy player at all, just a tenacious motor guy with solid fundamentals who can do whatever was needed.

Alternate vote: Charles Barkley. I understand the deficiencies he brings on defense. But outside of Pettit, I am not convinced that those issues offset the value he provides on offense relative to the other nominees. Elite offensive player with longevity. 1993 MVP and 11-time All NBA (5 first teams, 5 second teams and 1 third team), and led the league in TS% 4 times. Also an excellent rebounder in his prime, leading the league once and finishing in the top ten 9 times.

Nomination: Walt Frazier. Was always a fan of his and felt he was largely underrated since his role on the Knicks wasn't to be a dominant shooter. The Knicks were the epitome of a team-first emphasis in which the ball kept moving and resulted in guys like Frazier, Reed, DeBusschere, Barnett (then Monroe), Bradley, Lucas, etc. all getting their shots. Frazier was so good and efficient that if I were Red Holzman I probably would have wanted Frazier shooting more and DeBusschere and Bradley shoot a little less, but no one was asking me to coach the team. But within the parameters that Holzman wanted, Frazier played his part superbly. He took care of the ball, shot a very high percentage, and was a dominant man defender. 7-time All Defensive First Team, 4-time All NBA First Team (and 2-time second team), he was a guy who did everything very well with no glaring weakness.

Alternate nomination: John Stockton. For me this was between Stockton and Havlicek and it is very close. I think Hondo peaked a tad higher and while Stockton had greater longevity, that is somewhat offset by the difference in eras. But I struggle with how Hondo in his 20's could not/did not achieve the heights he achieved in his early 30's. Very close between the two but the tie-breaker for me was the overall league strength in Stockton's era va Hondo's.

Stockton's consistency is just incredible; finishing in the top 10 in assists for nine straight seasons would be highly impressive but leading the league in assist % for 14 out of 16 seasons is near impossible to wrap my head around. Especially when you have guys like prime Magic Johnson running around at the beginning of that streak and Jason Kidd during the latter part of that streak. Throw in 8 seasons in the top 5 in TS % and his 5 seasons on the All Defensive 2nd team just becomes the cherry on top.

OhayoKD · Post #10 » by **OhayoKD** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 8:40 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Those of us pushing Stockton's nomination (which I realize include you) feel similarly. It's part of the project.

Those of us pushing harden feel similarly too tbf

i believe you said it was due to off-court reasons, but i have yet to see a case for barkley as better than jh based on on-court things(and as a reminder, it was harden who played better teams closer)

Frankly i think Pippen is a better comparison. Barkley's main problem right now is that his backers aren't really williing to positively argue for him as the best candidate, rather than simply a viable one

trelos6 · Post #11 » by **trelos6** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:07 pm

VOTE: Harden

Postseason stats per 75 possessions
15-20 Harden (73 G): 28.2 points, 7.3 assists, 4.4 turnovers, 58.6% TS
06-10 Kobe (79 G): 28.6 points, 5.2 assists, 3.2 turnovers, 57.0% TS

Say what you will about choking in playoffs, Harden’s stats show he was as valuable as Kobe in his prime. I hate how Harden plays the game, but I’m putting that aside.

His 5 year 15-19 RS run: 30.5 pp75, +6.2 rTS%, 14 FTA/100, team rOrtg from 5-6 in the last 3 years of that range.

alternate vote, Scottie Pippen . Solid 6 years as a weak MVP. Also probably the best perimeter defender of all time.

nomination. Frazier. Outlined Frazier v Stockton below. It’s close.

alt nom. Stockton

Spoiler:

Colbinii · Post #12 » by **Colbinii** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 9:20 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Yeah, and he was passed by players who are recent with much higher peaks [Plus Wade + Nash].

Curry
CP3
Durant
Giannis
Jokic

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #13 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:10 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Those of us pushing Stockton's nomination (which I realize include you) feel similarly. It's part of the project.

Those of us pushing harden feel similarly too tbf

i believe you said it was due to off-court reasons, but i have yet to see a case for barkley as better than jh based on on-court things(and as a reminder, it was harden who played better teams closer)

Frankly i think Pippen is a better comparison. Barkley's main problem right now is that his backers aren't really williing to positively argue for him as the best candidate, rather than simply a viable one

No, the main problem is that several Barkley backers didn't show up to vote the last couple threads. I can think of three people who have been pretty consistent voters up to this point who just didn't vote the last couple threads who in all likelihood would've been Barkley voters. I don't want to name names because that never goes anywhere good, but you can go back and see them voting for Barkley two, three threads ago and see them letting him down the last couple threads with their no-shows. Had they shown, he would've gotten in #26.

I have in the past made very detailed arguments for Barkley, it's just when it's like the tenth time in a row, I lose the motivation to do anything beyond vote and give a one-sentence explanation.

The dude had a string of scoring efficiency seasons that has rarely been matched and was a GOAT-tier rebounder and all things considered, didn't suffer much playoff drop individually speaking.

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #14 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:14 pm

Colbinii wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Yeah, and he was passed by players who are recent with much higher peaks [Plus Wade + Nash].

Curry
CP3
Durant
Giannis
Jokic

I still disagree with CP3, but the other four I actually don't have much of a problem with, particularly Steph/Jokic/Giannis have added to their arguments since the last list.

Wade and Nash ranked below Barkley in 2020 and they were both already retired by then, meaning they've added nothing to their argument in the last three years, so why are they above him now? Because the voting pool is different.

Further, Harden currently leads this thread after HCL's vote, and he finished ten spots lower than Barkley last time around, and in the three years since, hasn't really been all that impressive in his post-Houston years.

Also, and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but at this rate there's going to be 9-10 spots between K.Malone and Barkley and, to me, that is absurd. There simply isn't that big of a gap between the two.

homecourtloss · Post #15 » by **homecourtloss** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:14 pm

Vote: Harden

His RS+PS impact signals look good:

Coming down to Barkley and Harden, I like Harden as an offensive engine, better than I like Barkley. I’m pretty sure prime Harden with some spare parts can create a contending type of offensive team. He could score with basically zero help with the absolutely absurd ISO numbers:

Harden ISO Points per Possession

2018: 1.22 PPP on 10 possessions per game, 55% eFG (shot 39% on pull up threes), 20% FT frequency, 5% TOV
2019: 1.10 PPP on 16 possessions per game, 51% eFG, 16% FT frequency, 7% TOV
2020: 1.12 PPP on 14 possessions per game, 52% eFG, 16% FT frequency, 7% TOV
2021 (BKN) 1.09 PPP on 8 possessions per game, 53% eFG, 15% FT frequency, 9% TOV

That 2018 season Probably one of the most underrated achievements in the past 25 years. He was basically making like three stepback threes per game. He shot 40% on threes after touching the ball for 6+ seconds (5 attempts a game :lol:

), 40% on threes after 7+ dribbles (4 attempts per game) something you just don’t see.

1.22 PPP would be in the 89th %ile for SPOT UP PPP, and nobody who played a lot of games and had 4+ spot up possessions per game broke 1.14 PPP in 2018. 84% of all his FGs were made unassisted.

—The 2017 GS Warriors scored 1.15 points per possession
—With Steph, KD, Klay, and Draymond on court, it was an incredible 1.26 points per possession.
—2018 Harden generated 1.22 in ISO. League average points in ISO in 2017–2019 has been between .86 and .87 points per possession. Harden’s scoring in ISO generated about 42% more points per possession than league wide average AND 6% more points per possession than the 2017 Warriors as a team did per possession. Steph/KD/Klay/Draymond on court in 2017 produced only 3% more points per possession than Harden did in 2018 dribbling the ball around and taking stepbacks. This is absolutely wild.

Nomination: Reggie Miller

Alt Nomination: John Stockton

Colbinii · Post #16 » by **Colbinii** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:22 pm

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
OldSchoolNoBull wrote:Just want to say again how incredibly frustrating it is that Barkley has fallen a minimum of 7 spots from last time. He just keeps getting blocked over and over and over by a voting population that appears to simply not like him very much.

Yeah, and he was passed by players who are recent with much higher peaks [Plus Wade + Nash].

Curry
CP3
Durant
Giannis
Jokic

I still disagree with CP3, but the other four I actually don't have much of a problem with, particularly Steph/Jokic/Giannis have added to their arguments since the last list.

Wade and Nash ranked below Barkley in 2020 and they were both already retired by then, meaning they've added nothing to their argument in the last three years, so why are they above him now? Because the voting pool is different.

Not just that--opinions can change. But, all 3 of those players were extremely close last time around, with a couple votes different can drastically change that.

Further, Harden currently leads this thread after HCL's vote, and he finished ten spots lower than Barkley last time around, and in the three years since, hasn't really been all that impressive in his post-Houston years.

Sure--and perception can change.

Also, and I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but at this rate there's going to be 9-10 spots between K.Malone and Barkley and, to me, that is absurd. There simply isn't that big of a gap between the two.

I agree. We need to move Malone lower.

Colbinii · Post #17 » by **Colbinii** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:26 pm

I guess people have no idea just how little the actual number matters in this. Look how close the voting was in 2020 where Barkley won. Literally 1-2 different voters and he is 24-25.

Charles Barkley - 4 (Cavsfansince84, Hornet Mania, Odinn21, trex_8063)
Kevin Durant - 4 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Joey Wheeler, Joao Saraiva)
Stephen Curry - 4 (Doctor MJ, Franco, penbeast0, Senior Walker)
Chris Paul - 3 (LA Bird, sansterre, Whopper_Sr)
Steve Nash - 2 (eminence, Jordan Syndrome)
Bob Pettit - 1 (Dr Positivity)
Elgin Baylor - 1 (Hal14)

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #18 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:32 pm

Colbinii wrote:I guess people have no idea just how little the actual number matters in this. Look how close the voting was in 2020 where Barkley won. Literally 1-2 different voters and he is 24-25.

Charles Barkley - 4 (Cavsfansince84, Hornet Mania, Odinn21, trex_8063)
Kevin Durant - 4 (DQuinn1575, Dutchball97, Joey Wheeler, Joao Saraiva)
Stephen Curry - 4 (Doctor MJ, Franco, penbeast0, Senior Walker)
Chris Paul - 3 (LA Bird, sansterre, Whopper_Sr)
Steve Nash - 2 (eminence, Jordan Syndrome)
Bob Pettit - 1 (Dr Positivity)
Elgin Baylor - 1 (Hal14)

This is a fair point(though if you look at what you quoted, you can see the voting pool is dramatically different than it is now).

Post #19 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Sat Sep 23, 2023 11:32 pm

Vote 1 - Charles Barkley
Vote 2 - Bob Pettit
Nomination 1 - John Stockton
Nomination 2 - TBD

From '87-'94, Barkley was pretty much unstoppable:

25.1 PPG, 11.9 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, .9 BPG, 63.2% TS, .58 FTr, .236 WS/48, 6.5 OBPM, 122 ORTG

His playoff production during that period dipped slightly in certain areas, but overall he was a great playoff performer:

26.1 PPG, 13.2 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.6 SPG, .9 BPG, 58.4% TS, .481 FTr, .202 WS/48, 6.5 OBPM, 120 ORTG

'93 finals stats - https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1993-nba-finals-bulls-vs-suns.html

As an undersized PF, Barkley was still one of the most efficient and dynamic volume scorers the game has ever seen. He used an uncanny combination of bulk and speed to beat larger defenders off the dribble, and finish above the rim. From '86-'92, he put up 24.7 PPG on a hyper efficient 64.4% TS (+10.7 rTS!) He scored on over 60% TS in each of those 7 seasons, leading the league in TS% for 4 years straight during that span. He has an absurd career TS Add of 2,972.8 and was never a negative in his 16 seasons.

Barkley's physicality early in his career was exemplary. He used sheer force to take over games, and it carried over into other areas in addition to scoring. He ranked 7th in the league in steals at 2.2 per game in only his 2nd year, extremely impressive for a 250+ pound player. A year later, Barkley led the league in boards at 14.6 per game. As a footnote to his career, he finished 2nd in RPG and TRB% at 35 years old.

It's important to note that every team Barkley was on immediately improved when he got there:

Philly
- '84: 52-30, 2.39 SRS
- '85: 58-24, 4.17 SRS (rookie year)

Phoenix
- '92: 53-29, 5.69 SRS
- '93: 62-20, 6.27 SRS (first year with the suns, taking them to the finals)

Houston
- '96: 48-34, 1.63 SRS
- '97: 57-25, 3.85 SRS (first year with the rockets)

While the suns finals appearance in '93 would be their best finish after acquiring Barkley, they had 3 straight seasons of 56+ wins in his 4 years there. One of the main culprits here was injuries to his best teammates. In Barkley's 4 years in PHX, Kevin Johnson only played in 49, 67, 47, and 56 games respectively. In 95-96, Barkley's last season in PHX, Danny Manning only played 33 games, and their 3rd leading scorer was a rookie Michael Finley.

I don't pay super close attention to career totals when it comes to the NBA, but this is impressive nonetheless: Barkley is 1 of 7 players in NBA history to post career totals of 20,000+ points, 10,000+ boards, and 4,000+ assists (Kareem, LeBron, Wilt, Karl Malone, Duncan, Garnett).

Post #20 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Sep 24, 2023 12:47 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:...

I don't pay super close attention to career totals when it comes to the NBA, but this is impressive nonetheless: Barkley is 1 of 7 players in NBA history to post career totals of 20,000+ points, 10,000+ boards, and 4,000+ assists (Kareem, LeBron, Wilt, Karl Malone, Duncan, Garnett).

Normally I'm more of an 8 season prime person but if you want an impressive career total, John Stockton is one of 1 player in NBA history to post 15,000 assists. You could take second place Jason Kidd, add 20% to his totals, and he still can't catch Stockton. FWIW.