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On the Thinking Basketball podcast they recently did a series called "Who *could* be the GOAT?" (three part series, episodes 222-224). They talked about a bunch of players and asked the question whether you could make a GOAT case. I haven't listened to part 3 yet.

That made me think about what other guys on this forum think. So the question is, who is the "worst" player you would make a somewhat reasonable GOAT case for?

Assuming you mean NBL/NBA/ABA only, the lowest ranked possible GOAT is probably Mikan. The numbers and evidence from his era have a lot of holes but he was seen as the GOAT when he was playing, has a big statistical footprint, and his teams were certainly dominant.

Otherwise, I could make a reasonable case for Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron.

-Luke- wrote:On the Thinking Basketball podcast they recently did a series called "Who *could* be the GOAT?" (three part series, episodes 222-224). They talked about a bunch of players and asked the question whether you could make a GOAT case. I haven't listened to part 3 yet.

That made me think about what other guys on this forum think. So the question is, who is the "worst" player you would make a somewhat reasonable GOAT case for?

*Could is different because you could make anyone in the top ten have a goat case if you stretch it enough lol

I’ve never understood the idea that criteria must be some sort of CORP estimation or something like that, even if I align with that (to an extent) more than other criteria

Russell, Kareem, Jordan and LeBron are clearly GOAT candidates in my eyes. I then have Wilt and Duncan as my cut-offs since I could see them in the GOAT convo but have a hard time seeing them come out on top. Mikan had a considerable period where he was far and away the best individual player in the league, while also winning the title nearly every year, but considering the length of his pro career, the still developing rules and the level of opposition he faced, I don't think he has a serious GOAT case.

Just to clarify for everyone who might not have listened to the podcast, Ben and Cody were talking about which players could be argued for GOAT peak, not GOAT in general. Stuff like career value, accomplishments etc. don't factor in.

LeBron
Russell
Kareem/Jordan

As Djoker mentioned, it was all about peak discussion and I think there are around ~10 names that have a reasonable case for that claim.

From a career perspective, I have Russell, Jordan, Lebron, and Kareem as Goat candidates with clear cut cases, while viewing TIm Duncan and Wilt Chamberlain as more of dark horse candidates (Because of Duncan's intangibles and Wilt's athleticism). I don't see strong cases for anyone outside of those six. If you really stretch it, maybe you could make a case for Mikan or anyone else in the top 10. If you want to get really absurd, John Stockton can be a fun thought exercise. Heavily weight the value of assists, steals, scoring efficiency, intangibles, and longevity while buying into his elite advanced statistics and voila, GOAT.

Tim duncan, jordan and russel are the weaker careers i can see goat cases for

Lebron and kareem the more clear goat cases

GOAT peak, as in the podcast being referenced? I'd go quite deeper than them. Walton, Duncan, Oscar, Robinson... at a bare minimum.

Let's put it this way, you absolutely cannot convince me that 2020 playoff Davis doesn't have a GOAT peak case.

Careers... for me it's pretty much LeBron, Kareem and the always obvious Russell argument, honestly.

Peak? Mikan, Russell, Wilt, (can't see Oscar as anywhere near as valuable as either of those two contemporaries), Kareem, Hawkins (ok, probably not), Erving, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem (again, probably not), Shaq, Duncan (I don't see it as likely but it could be argued), LeBron, Curry, Giannis, Jokic. That's about all the ones I think I could stretch the term to argue.

I like to be open minded with these things, but where I stand right now the worst candidate for GOAT peak: MJ and for GOAT career: Bill Russell.

Ben AN wrote:I like to be open minded with these things, but where I stand right now the worst candidate for GOAT peak: MJ and for GOAT career: Bill Russell.

Whom are all your candidates for these, and why's Michael or Bill the first on your chopping block in either regard?

For peak, no order in case "strength":

1962 Bill Russell (other years work, as he's so damn consistent)
1967 Wilt Chamberlain (open to a 1964 argument aside from win shares)
1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (could be swayed on 1974/71)
1991 Michael Jordan (1988/89/90 have great cases, would love to hear why one of them might be his peak)
1994 Hakeem Olajuwon (some playoff "on" data would be helpful)
2000 Shaquille O'Neal (some PS resiliency questions, I would have to regard his defense higher for the case to be stronger ig)
2003 Tim Duncan (I think people undersell how good his offense was here)
2009 LeBron James (ditto MJ's point for 2013/16 seasons)

These are all the guys I regard having peaked at the GOAT level (using CORP or some parallel in nature valuation).

HMs (sure-fire all-time level of peak play) would be Magic, Bird, Steph, Garnett, Walton, Jokic, and West - where the lattermost is a big-if for me / more ambiguous.

rk2023 wrote:

Ben AN wrote:I like to be open minded with these things, but where I stand right now the worst candidate for GOAT peak: MJ and for GOAT career: Bill Russell.

Whom are all your candidates for these, and why's Michael or Bill the first on your chopping block in either regard?

1. GOAT peak candidates (relative to era): Mikan, Jordan, LeBron
2. GOAT career candidates: LeBron, Jordan, Russell

MJ greatly lacks the situational defensive impact of Mikan, a rim protecting big in an era with 40s spacing, who was also the most productive player of his era (even though there's less data on Mikan's era). I also simply think LeBron was better than MJ on both ends due to his varied ways to affect a game at a high level. While on the subject though I'm still curious about why 14 LBJ>18 LBJ for you.

As far as GOAT criterion I've heard (Career value/modernism: LBJ, accolades/box score averages+accolades: MJ, most titles as the guy: Russell), I find Russell's the least compelling and I can't take his career value argument seriously vs LeBron, because of the gulf in longevity.

Ben AN wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

Ben AN wrote:I like to be open minded with these things, but where I stand right now the worst candidate for GOAT peak: MJ and for GOAT career: Bill Russell.

Whom are all your candidates for these, and why's Michael or Bill the first on your chopping block in either regard?

1. GOAT peak candidates (relative to era): Mikan, Jordan, LeBron
2. GOAT career candidates: LeBron, Jordan, Russell

MJ greatly lacks the situational defensive impact of Mikan, a rim protecting big in an era with 40s spacing, who was also the most productive player of his era (even though there's less data on Mikan's era). I also simply think LeBron was better than MJ on both ends due to his varied ways to affect a game at a high level. While on the subject though I'm still curious about why 14 LBJ>18 LBJ for you.

As far as GOAT criterion I've heard (Career value/modernism: LBJ, accolades/box score averages+accolades: MJ, most titles as the guy: Russell), I find Russell's the least compelling and I can't take his career value argument seriously vs LeBron, because of the gulf in longevity.

Thanks for sharing, happy to elaborate as well. I like 14 James more as a defender than 18 - and he’s only a hair below on offense Imo. 14 is a very underrated season for me, where leading the Heat to a 113 or so on-court ORTG (pre the growth of pace and space era) with Wade being on the decline (evidenced by a 115.9 ORTG in James/No-Wade minutes) impresses me. Also was James’ best scoring season of his career - the most efficient he’s been in an RS + PS in aggregate, most diverse arsenal, so on.

It all just depends on how loose you want to get with the cut off. The loosest that’s even reasonable is guys in the teens AT IMO. Once you get past that there really isn’t a viable GOAT case even in the most extreme. To put names to it we’re talking:

West/Oscar/KG/Mikan/Robinson/Kobe/Curry/etc.

There’s some flex for guys that had short peaks like Walton, and on the opposite end there’s some flex for a guy like Stockton. There’s new guys making a charge too, see; Jokic.

Djoker wrote:Just to clarify for everyone who might not have listened to the podcast, Ben and Cody were talking about which players could be argued for GOAT peak, not GOAT in general. Stuff like career value, accomplishments etc. don't factor in.

Yes, thanks for clarifying. The podcast was the motivation to open this thread, but I should have mentioned that my question was different. I meant more career value, so what people usually mean if they say GOAT. Although it isn't an exact science how one measures "GOAT" obviously.

-Luke- wrote:On the Thinking Basketball podcast they recently did a series called "Who *could* be the GOAT?" (three part series, episodes 222-224). They talked about a bunch of players and asked the question whether you could make a GOAT case. I haven't listened to part 3 yet.

That made me think about what other guys on this forum think. So the question is, who is the "worst" player you would make a somewhat reasonable GOAT case for?

Lebron, Kareem, and Russell.

Everyone else is a stretch I think. Could go with absolute value/moderism to make cases for the likes of hakeem, duncan, and giannis I guess.

Jaivl wrote:GOAT peak, as in the podcast being referenced? I'd go quite deeper than them. Walton, Duncan, Oscar, Robinson... at a bare minimum.

Let's put it this way, you absolutely cannot convince me that 2020 playoff Davis doesn't have a GOAT peak case.

Careers... for me it's pretty much LeBron, Kareem and the always obvious Russell argument, honestly.

So does 'case" here just mean "well its possible" or something you can actually argue for being better than every other similar stretch ever.

Ben AN wrote:

rk2023 wrote:

Ben AN wrote:I like to be open minded with these things, but where I stand right now the worst candidate for GOAT peak: MJ and for GOAT career: Bill Russell.

Whom are all your candidates for these, and why's Michael or Bill the first on your chopping block in either regard?

1. GOAT peak candidates (relative to era): Mikan, Jordan, LeBron
2. GOAT career candidates: LeBron, Jordan, Russell

MJ greatly lacks the situational defensive impact of Mikan, a rim protecting big in an era with 40s spacing, who was also the most productive player of his era (even though there's less data on Mikan's era). I also simply think LeBron was better than MJ on both ends due to his varied ways to affect a game at a high level. While on the subject though I'm still curious about why 14 LBJ>18 LBJ for you.

As far as GOAT criterion I've heard (Career value/modernism: LBJ, accolades/box score averages+accolades: MJ, most titles as the guy: Russell), I find Russell's the least compelling and I can't take his career value argument seriously vs LeBron, because of the gulf in longevity.

Including mikan and not russell is odd. Russell has actual signals which arguably point to him as the most valuable player we have such signals for to go with his unmatched ring count. You specified "relative to era" so his offensive limitations aren't really relevant

Would also give "accolades" to russell as well for career. He would have the most fmvps by a margin and had 5 mvps as well. All he would potentially lack are all-nba 1st team selections/all-star selections relative to the longetvitiy giants(kg, duncan, kareem, lebron, ect) and a "what percentage of mvp shares did you win with your mvps" disadvantage vs lebron(and then bird and then mj)