Who would you rather build your team around - Dame, Butler or Stockton?

One_and_Done · Post #1 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:18 pm

Who you got?

Rishkar · Post #2 » by **Rishkar** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:24 pm

Stockton is my choice here. Far better defender than Dame, who looks like a bottom of the league guy in defensive metrics and by the eye test; he looks much better offensively than Butler. Crucial component to the success of those Jazz teams, and has a significant longevity and durability advantage over both. One of the most gifted passers ever, capable scorer, great help defender, good man defender, and had a good handle. Got to the rim decently often for a point guard and converted well around the basket.

Post #3 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:26 pm

Can't say I'd ever build AROUND Stockton. I think I'd love to have him around a core star but he wouldn't be my first pick. I think I'd probably go with Dame, defensive issues notwithstanding.

SHAQ32 · Post #4 » by **SHAQ32** » Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:57 pm

It's ~close overall, impact-wise, but Stockton's an ironman.

One_and_Done · Post #5 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:59 am

What use is an iron man who is a far less impactful player?

Rishkar · Post #6 » by **Rishkar** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:59 am

tsherkin wrote:Can't say I'd ever build AROUND Stockton. I think I'd love to have him around a core star but he wouldn't be my first pick. I think I'd probably go with Dame, defensive issues notwithstanding.

I get where you're coming from, and would agree if this comparison was specifically about peaks. However, Lillard has accumulated so many less minutes. Heck, he even has less points in his career despite being a significantly better scorer (the only real edge I give Lillard here). I agree that Dame is likely a better number one option on a team competing for a chip, but Stockton fits better around another star and I have my doubts over whether Lillard can carry a team to a chip as the best player (outside of a Chauncey Billups like role) and Stockton gives you a chance in an additional 8 seasons as a great point guard.

Post #7 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:27 am

Rishkar wrote:I get where you're coming from, and would agree if this comparison was specifically about peaks. However, Lillard has accumulated so many less minutes. Heck, he even has less points in his career despite being a significantly better scorer (the only real edge I give Lillard here). I agree that Dame is likely a better number one option on a team competing for a chip, but Stockton fits better around another star and I have my doubts over whether Lillard can carry a team to a chip as the best player (outside of a Chauncey Billups like role) and Stockton gives you a chance in an additional 8 seasons as a great point guard.

I'd rather compete for a title over a shorter window than have iron man Stockton and his loads and loads of post-prime minutes. I feel where you're coming from, of course, but contention isn't about longevity so much as peak.

AEnigma · Post #8 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:28 am

Depends on how much I am paying them and how long they are guaranteed to stay with the team.

Twenty years of Stockton being the fiftieth largest contract in the league versus unspecified time with Lillard and Wade on maximum contracts? Sure, give me Stockton — but what type of discussion has that acknowledgment advanced?

ShotCreator · Post #9 » by **ShotCreator** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:37 am

tsherkin wrote:
Rishkar wrote:I get where you're coming from, and would agree if this comparison was specifically about peaks. However, Lillard has accumulated so many less minutes. Heck, he even has less points in his career despite being a significantly better scorer (the only real edge I give Lillard here). I agree that Dame is likely a better number one option on a team competing for a chip, but Stockton fits better around another star and I have my doubts over whether Lillard can carry a team to a chip as the best player (outside of a Chauncey Billups like role) and Stockton gives you a chance in an additional 8 seasons as a great point guard.

I'd rather compete for a title over a shorter window than have iron man Stockton and his loads and loads of post-prime minutes. I feel where you're coming from, of course, but contention isn't about longevity so much as peak.

Lillard has probably two good playoff series in his entire career. He is probably the most overrated guard of the era despite being a rare level of good in the RS offensively.

One_and_Done · Post #10 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 1:53 am

Contracts are irrelevant obviously. Just assume you get them for their whole career.

Post #11 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:28 am

ShotCreator wrote:Lillard has probably two good playoff series in his entire career. He is probably the most overrated guard of the era despite being a rare level of good in the RS offensively.

I can think of 4 or 5, but yes, consistency in the postseason is an issue with him, but he also hasn't enjoyed tons of support. The best guy I can think of him playing alongside was LaMarcus Aldridge. But again, I think the potential for peak-level performance when he's clicking is worth more than the consistency Stockton brings with no major postseason high-end or ability to turn it up as required against higher-end defenses.

1993Playoffs · Post #12 » by **1993Playoffs** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:58 am

tsherkin wrote:Can't say I'd ever build AROUND Stockton. I think I'd love to have him around a core star but he wouldn't be my first pick. I think I'd probably go with Dame, defensive issues notwithstanding.

I agree with you on Stockton. I actually expected you to pick Butler due to his all around game / defensive ability

Post #13 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 3:10 am

1993Playoffs wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Can't say I'd ever build AROUND Stockton. I think I'd love to have him around a core star but he wouldn't be my first pick. I think I'd probably go with Dame, defensive issues notwithstanding.

I agree with you on Stockton. I actually expected you to pick Butler due to his all around game / defensive ability

I thought about it. He's an interesting one, for sure. I waffled considerably, and probably ended up with a recency-bias choice, lol.

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:28 am

Butler vs Stockton is a very interesting comparison and it would depend on a lot of external things.

Stockton vs Lillard is a no brainer to me, give me John without thinking twice.

70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:29 am

One_and_Done wrote:What use is an iron man who is a far less impactful player?

Well, it's better to have a good player who plays than a better player who doesn't, right...?

At first, you should prove that someone like Lillard is more impactful than Stockton, because that's your preassumption.

One_and_Done · Post #16 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:47 am

I think it's pretty safe to say Dame is a more impactful player than Stockton lol. Dame can carry a great offence and is a legit MVP calibre guy. Stockton is a borderline all-nba guy.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #17 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:48 am

Jimmy because his injuries have been flukey more than anything worrying so far afaik

Dame because dame is probably one of the best on ball point guards ever on offense, there’s a legitimate argument for him vs Curry offensively on ball

Stockton because he was a bad person or something and also he’s not better than the two above lol

70sFan · Post #18 » by **70sFan** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:25 am

One_and_Done wrote:I think it's pretty safe to say Dame is a more impactful player than Stockton lol. Dame can carry a great offence and is a legit MVP calibre guy. Stockton is a borderline all-nba guy.

I don't think Lillard was ever "a legit MVP calibre guy". I don't think he was ever close to that to be honest.

If it's that easy, you should provide simple yet convincing argumentation behind it, right?

One_and_Done · Post #19 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:31 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I think it's pretty safe to say Dame is a more impactful player than Stockton lol. Dame can carry a great offence and is a legit MVP calibre guy. Stockton is a borderline all-nba guy.

I don't think Lillard was ever "a legit MVP calibre guy". I don't think he was ever close to that to be honest.

If it's that easy, you should provide simple yet convincing argumentation behind it, right?

You mean like how he was 4th in the MVP vote? Or how he led a meh Blazers team to a conference finals? Or how he makes the Blazers an elite offense when he's on the floor. Dame isa rival with Curry or Harden on offence. GMs would laugh at the idea of taking a borderline all-nba talent like Stockton over him.

Dame had to lead weak support casts to success. Stockton was someone's Robin.

iggymcfrack · Post #20 » by **iggymcfrack** » Thu Sep 28, 2023 7:18 am

Obviously Stockton. The idea that the lead scorer is always the guy you're building around is stupid. The most successful dynasty in the history of the NBA was built around a guy who scored significantly less than Stockton when adjusted for pace. And the same way that Boston had different guys take turns being the lead scorer around their franchise piece in Russell, you could just as easily build a dynasty around Stockton with different lead scorers being the #2 guy. In the modern league, it could be a Pascal Siakam or a Jaylen Brown or a Lauri Markkanen pouring in the most points while Stockton anchors things on both ends and leads the team as their primary contributor to winning basketball games.