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Narrative-wise, these two are very interestingly similar.

- Combo guards known for defense first, and often mentioned by players (a lot of modern players shout out Jrue's defense, and you had people like MJ/Reggie Miller shouting out Dumars)
- Well-respected for their professionalism
- Had acceptable, but not spectacular, passing and scoring in a secondary role
- Borderline all-stars (made more than one, but usually barely or on the bottom of voting, and missed many more)
- Not good enough to be #1 option, but a great in a secondary role with a game that in theory is easy to fit almost anywhere (though we didn't see this with Dumars)

Dumars is more accomplished with accolades, though obviously that depends a lot on teammates (all-stars, Finals MVP, one more ring). In basic stats, Jrue has the clear edge in Assists/(especially) Rebounds while being a bit taller, though Dumars wins in scoring efficiency (clearly the better shooter).

Funnily enough, Jrue Holiday also won the Joe Dumars Trophy for sportsmanship in 2021.

I've watched them play but haven't done a deep dive into footage or advanced stats. Who would you take and why (career, peak, or both)? Bonus points for diving into specifics.

These two are my "hipster" picks as favorite players past and present. You hit the nail on the head summarizing their similarities. I always admired shorter (under 6'5) combo guards that can shoot, create for themselves, run the point and play great defense. They embody the portable player that can fit on any team...not to mention they're both great people off the court as well.

Let me preface by saying that they're both equally valuable for their respective eras. I started only watching the NBA as Dumars was hitting his prime but from what I can remember, Jrue is probably the better athlete while Joe was stronger and had better lateral movement. Jrue has a longer wingspan and was a more capable shot blocker. I mean look at this practice clip here:



The guy he blocked is 6'9 for reference. He gets beat on the first step but still manages to block him. As such, Jrue is the slightly better man-to-man defender...again relative to this era's rules. Joe is probably the better team defender as he was mindful to funneling his man to his big men.

I would partly agree that neither would be comfortable being a number 1 option but they could if forced to and they certainly can score in spurts. But I think Joe has the edge here because he actually was put in situations where he was or had to be the leading scorer longer. Joe led the Detroit in PPG in 1993 with 23.5 on good efficiency, albeit when most of the Bad Boys were already dissolved. Jrue actually did lead the Sixers in 2013 at 17.7, also on good effiency. But then he had AD and Giannis as teammates later on. Coincidently they both got 27 PPG as their highest scoring output in the playoffs. Difference was Joe led the team in the Finals while Jrue was still in the first round alongside AD (33 PPG). Here are Joe and Jrue's highest scoring games, respectively:

Joe:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/nba_players_stats/top_pts/joe_dumars.htm

Jrue:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/nba_players_stats/top_pts/jrue_holiday.htm

As a result, Joe is the more consistent and explosive scorer, despite Jrue having the higher career high (51) vs Joe's 45. I personally also believe that Joe was also the more dynamic scorer as he had a softer touch at the rim and a solid floater. He was also better at catch-and-shoot.

For FIBA/Olympics, I'd also give the edge to Joe despite the small sample size. I think Joe was 4th in scoring on Dream Team 2 in 1994 with an impressive 51% 3P%:

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/player/p/pid/19034/sid/2913/tid/379/tid2//_/1994_World_Championship_for_Men/index.html

Jrue was solid given the depth of the team but didn't shoot lights out from 3:

https://www.fiba.basketball/olympics/men/2020/player/Jrue-Holiday

As you pointed out, Jrue is probably the better passer and has played the point moreso than Joe. Joe really only played point fulltime when he didn't have Isiah Thomas or Grant Hill. Defense is a wash depending on era. I'd take Joe in the hand-checking era and on FIBA with his physicality and strength...though Jrue is no slouch either as there's footage oh him guarding Giannis in practice...but I'd take Jrue in the modern NBA with his athleticism and length. Both have obviously had to guard all-time great players despite their size. Besides the obvious MJ and Reggie, Joe also did a decent job on Magic Johnson. Jrue has guarded the likes of Kevin Durant and Giannis.

But to answer your questions on overall:

career: Joe
peak: Joe
ahtleticsm: Jrue
scoring: Joe
defense: Joe with handchecking and FIBA, Jrue in modern NBA
passing: Jrue

jojo4341 wrote:These two are my "hipster" picks as favorite players past and present. You hit the nail on the head summarizing their similarities. I always admired shorter (under 6'5) combo guards that can shoot, create for themselves, run the point and play great defense. They embody the portable player that can fit on any team...not to mention they're both great people off the court as well.

Let me preface by saying that they're both equally valuable for their respective eras. I started only watching the NBA as Dumars was hitting his prime but from what I can remember, Jrue is probably the better athlete while Joe was stronger and had better lateral movement. Jrue has a longer wingspan and was a more capable shot blocker. I mean look at this practice clip here:

Watch on YouTube

The guy he blocked is 6'9 for reference. He gets beat on the first step but still manages to block him. As such, Jrue is the slightly better man-to-man defender...again relative to this era's rules. Joe is probably the better team defender as he was mindful to funneling his man to his big men.

I would partly agree that neither would be comfortable being a number 1 option but they could if forced to and they certainly can score in spurts. But I think Joe has the edge here because he actually was put in situations where he was or had to be the leading scorer longer. Joe led the Detroit in PPG in 1993 with 23.5 on good efficiency, albeit when most of the Bad Boys were already dissolved. Jrue actually did lead the Sixers in 2013 at 17.7, also on good effiency. But then he had AD and Giannis as teammates later on. Coincidently they both got 27 PPG as their highest scoring output in the playoffs. Difference was Joe led the team in the Finals while Jrue was still in the first round alongside AD (33 PPG). Here are Joe and Jrue's highest scoring games, respectively:

Joe:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/nba_players_stats/top_pts/joe_dumars.htm

Jrue:
https://www.landofbasketball.com/nba_players_stats/top_pts/jrue_holiday.htm

As a result, Joe is the more consistent and explosive scorer, despite Jrue having the higher career high (51) vs Joe's 45. I personally also believe that Joe was also the more dynamic scorer as he had a softer touch at the rim and a solid floater. He was also better at catch-and-shoot.

For FIBA/Olympics, I'd also give the edge to Joe despite the small sample size. I think Joe was 4th in scoring on Dream Team 2 in 1994 with an impressive 51% 3P%:

https://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/player/p/pid/19034/sid/2913/tid/379/tid2//_/1994_World_Championship_for_Men/index.html

Jrue was solid given the depth of the team but didn't shoot lights out from 3:

https://www.fiba.basketball/olympics/men/2020/player/Jrue-Holiday

As you pointed out, Jrue is probably the better passer and has played the point moreso than Joe. Joe really only played point fulltime when he didn't have Isiah Thomas or Grant Hill. Defense is a wash depending on era. I'd take Joe in the hand-checking era and on FIBA with his physicality and strength...though Jrue is no slouch either as there's footage oh him guarding Giannis in practice...but I'd take Jrue in the modern NBA with his athleticism and length. Both have obviously had to guard all-time great players despite their size. Besides the obvious MJ and Reggie, Joe also did a decent job on Magic Johnson. Jrue has guarded the likes of Kevin Durant and Giannis.

But to answer your questions on overall:

career: Joe
peak: Joe
ahtleticsm: Jrue
scoring: Joe
defense: Joe with handchecking and FIBA, Jrue in modern NBA
passing: Jrue

lmfao that block was nasty

You won't see many of those from Dumars. He is a candidate for the least blocks + steals for anyone with his minutes in NBA history.

I love Jrue, but Dumars was literally the best player on a champion. Gotta give him the edge here.

iggymcfrack wrote:I love Jrue, but Dumars was literally the best player on a champion. Gotta give him the edge here.

Not sure if he was but how does that make him better? I hope you're not under the impression that you can build a championship team with Joe Dumars as your clear guy.

penbeast0 wrote:You won't see many of those from Dumars. He is a candidate for the least blocks + steals for anyone with his minutes in NBA history.

He's the lowest career percentage and per 100 guy in combined steals and blocks of my list of non-box good defenders (A Mason, Jaron Collins and Raja Bell are next [John Paxson is in this vicinity if one likes him ... I didn't manage come up with a lot of true point guards]). But Dumars pairs this with low rebound productivity too. Thus there's a case he may be among the players more underrated by box-side measures of defense.


We do have less certainty regarding his impact that JH,

Owly wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:You won't see many of those from Dumars. He is a candidate for the least blocks + steals for anyone with his minutes in NBA history.

He's the lowest career percentage and per 100 guy in combined steals and blocks of my list of non-box good defenders (A Mason, Jaron Collins and Raja Bell are next [John Paxson is in this vicinity if one likes him ... I didn't manage come up with a lot of true point guards]). But Dumars pairs this with low rebound productivity too. Thus there's a case he may be among the players more underrated by box-side measures of defense.


We do have less certainty regarding his impact that JH,

From whatever meager amount of impact signals we do have, it is highly unlikely Dumars was even within a tier of JRue impact wise.

iggymcfrack wrote:I love Jrue, but Dumars was literally the best player on a champion. Gotta give him the edge here.

I don't think he was the best player so much as he had the one playoff series of his entire career over 25ppg in those finals. Which he deserves credit for but he's not really the clear best player on that team. He's more somewhere in the 1-3 range imo. He also didn't emerge as a real 3pt shooter until he was 28/29. Having said that, I don't think there's a clear or right/wrong answer here. If you get Dumars now at age 21 and he starts developing his 3pt shot at a much earlier age then I think I'd go with him.