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I think this celtics team might not have the best #1 or #2 in the league but arguably they have the best #3 and the best #4 by a long shot. Historically how many teams have had better players than Jrue Holiday, assuming he plays at roughly the same level as he did for the bucks last year for the celtics in the 2023-2024 season?

The 2017 warriors for sure with Green and Klay

Porzingis is a fairly unreliable player healthwise and derrick white is very good but not some crazy outlier at 4th like klay was

Jrue is a great 3rd but brown is a meh 2 for me and vice versa if you swap them. Tatum is a legit lead guy but i kinda see him as the gatekeeper to legit superstardom

I think warriors klay/iggy depending on year were better 4th guys from 15-19. As was battier on the heatles, kawhi in the 14 spurs, arguably capela in the 18 rockets (or eric gordon if you are higher on clint) brook lopez in the 21 bucks or siakam in the 19 raptors.

There is also kidd/marion in the 11 dallas having quite the impact as did rondo/ray allen in the celtics (whoever was 4th at any given year after 2008)
Panda lover metta world peace was quite the 4th guy too in the kobe lakers to have

The depth is great but i think people need to pump the brakes a bit here

818283 sixers for example
Spurs 1314
Maybe 96 supersonics with hersey hawkins
Pistons with sheed
86 cees with dj
Chet walker on 67 sixers
Scalabrine played on some teams...

2017 Warriors - Dray or Klay
1985 Lakers - Byron Scott, James Worthy or Kareem
1989 Pistons - Mark Aguirre, Bill Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson or Dennis Rodman (candidate for deepest rotation ever)
2004 Pistons - Rasheed Wallace or Tayshaun Prince (behind Chauncy, Ben and Rip)
1993 Suns - Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, Danny Ainge, Richard Dumas (another candidate)
2007 Suns - Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw

I'd have Jrue the 2nd best--not 4th best player on the Celtics.

Who is the celtic's 4th best player? Porzingis? If so, a decent amount if we are picking from all of history.

1 - Tatum
2 - Jrue
3 - Healthy Porzingis
4 - Brown

For me, and I'd take a fair number through history, though it's a very high level top 4 (and really the 5/6 of White/Horford is strong too).

Just thinking of championships #4s I prefer over Brown.

'21 Bucks - Lopez
'19 Raptors - Gasol
'15/'17/'18 Warriors - Klay (Iguodala was better, but aged)
'14 Spurs - Parker
'11 Mavs - Kidd

I think Brown's getting underrated a bit here. I mean he has his flaws but he's pretty damn good. Porzignis could be anywhere from a bit of a dud to a guy putting up 18ppg for them on very good efficiency. Need to see how he's actually used and produces before I'd compare him to 4th best players on other teams.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think Brown's getting underrated a bit here. I mean he has his flaws but he's pretty damn good. Porzignis could be anywhere from a bit of a dud to a guy putting up 18ppg for them on very good efficiency. Need to see how he's actually used and produces before I'd compare him to 4th best players on other teams.

Is he?

Aside from straight counting stats, his impact isn't felt through +/-, Advanced Metrics like WS/BPM, he isn't an efficient scorer [+0.3 TS+ last season, which at his volume is fine], and he isn't a good defender [Not negative].

In the context of #4s if you think Brown is their number 4 he clears all other ones talent wise, but his fit with Tatum isn’t the best and the “your turn my turn” stuff which probably explains his lower impact doesnt make sense when both of them choke randomly instead lmao

I don’t think browns their number 4 anyway though lol

Being a decent wings defender with neutral impact is absolutely a positive, you’d rather than than a guy like Curry or Chris Paul defensively who are solid impact guys on that end but aren’t better defenders once the playoffs hit

eminence wrote:1 - Tatum
2 - Jrue
3 - Healthy Porzingis
4 - Brown

For me, and I'd take a fair number through history, though it's a very high level top 4 (and really the 5/6 of White/Horford is strong too).

Just thinking of championships #4s I prefer over Brown.

'21 Bucks - Lopez
'19 Raptors - Gasol
'15/'17/'18 Warriors - Klay (Iguodala was better, but aged)
'14 Spurs - Parker
'11 Mavs - Kidd

Good list.

Siakam and Gasol on 2019 Raptors is a really good #3 and #4.

I’d add 1996 Bulls with Rodman/Kukoc or Kukoc/Rodman with one of the best 5th best players ever by role in Ron Harper.

1983 Sixers with Bobby Jones
1986 Celtics with Parish/DJ/Ainge
1989 Pistons with Laimbeer and Rodman (though maybe they’re higher) and then Salley and Microvave

homecourtloss wrote:Good list.

Siakam and Gasol on 2019 Raptors is a really good #3 and #4.

I’d add 1996 Bulls with Rodman/Kukoc or Kukoc/Rodman with one of the best 5th best players ever by role in Ron Harper.

1983 Sixers with Bobby Jones
1986 Celtics with Parish/DJ/Ainge
1989 Pistons with Laimbeer and Rodman (though maybe they’re higher) and then Salley and Microvave

I could see all those as well.

I think the consensus is whoever you have as Bostons #4 he's not any sort of historical outlier, but fortunately for them, they just have to compete against teams playing this season, where they could reasonably have the better 3/4/5/6 in the majority of matchups.

Colbinii wrote:
Is he?

Aside from straight counting stats, his impact isn't felt through +/-, Advanced Metrics like WS/BPM, he isn't an efficient scorer [+0.3 TS+ last season, which at his volume is fine], and he isn't a good defender [Not negative].

Well a few things. 1. I don't think having a volume iso scorer like Brown next to one like Tatum(when both aren't really much of playmakers) is an ideal fit and 2. last year was sort of a down year for him metric/3pt shooting wise(despite being named 2nd team all nba). I'd also say he has an overall positive reputation as a defender though he's inconsistent(has gotten all def voting shares every year since 2018). So ya I think he could thrive more next to a real pg and keep making all nba 2nd/3rd teams for quite a few years. So I think he's got a lot of positives along with his size/athleticism which is also ideal at his position.

RSCD3_ wrote:I think this celtics team might not have the best #1 or #2 in the league but arguably they have the best #3 and the best #4 by a long shot. Historically how many teams have had better players than Jrue Holiday, assuming he plays at roughly the same level as he did for the bucks last year for the celtics in the 2023-2024 season?

As others have said, I wouldn't consider Holiday the #4 guy on the team. #4 scorer likely, but not #4 player.

To me the big question about the Celtics is Porzingis who made all-star once a half decade ago. How good can he be? How healthy will he be?

If the theory of the Celtics works - and by theory I mean "Trading for KP was actually a great idea" - then to me they are the championship favorites, and they'll certainly feel like an incredibly stacked roster. If it doesn't work, it could all start falling apart.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think Brown's getting underrated a bit here. I mean he has his flaws but he's pretty damn good. Porzignis could be anywhere from a bit of a dud to a guy putting up 18ppg for them on very good efficiency. Need to see how he's actually used and produces before I'd compare him to 4th best players on other teams.

Brown's great. Not far behind Holiday, if Holiday is still Jrue.

So I'll bring up the Big Ben Pistons, who were your ultimate killer lineup team:

Billups
Hamilton
Prince
Wallace
Wallace

I think it's unlikely that the Celtics will have 4 players next year that are more valuable than the 5th best Piston was back when they won the chip.

Not me being super-pessimistic about the Celtics, just being real about fit. Doesn't necessarily mean that the 4th best Piston was better in the abstract than the 4th best Celtic, but I really don't think it's easy to have 4 guys who work as well as those Pistons did.

Brown is the second or third best player on the team but the fourth most important because if tingis pingis is mid they are finished

MyUniBroDavis wrote:In the context of #4s if you think Brown is their number 4 he clears all other ones talent wise, but his fit with Tatum isn’t the best and the “your turn my turn” stuff which probably explains his lower impact doesnt make sense when both of them choke randomly instead lmao

Lot's of players were talented [J.R. Smith was super talented, but it wasn't until he toned down and bought into a more limited role did he have success with Cleveland. The same for Wiggins, a player who is more talented than Brown and won as a 2/3/4 with GSW.

The Your Turn, My Turn strategy is just as much Brown's fault as Tatum's.

Being a decent wings defender with neutral impact is absolutely a positive, you’d rather than than a guy like Curry or Chris Paul defensively who are solid impact guys on that end but aren’t better defenders once the playoffs hit

Jaylen isn't a negative defender, of course. It comes down to positive, but for me the only reason it is positive is because of his position--and more importantly because he played with great defensive guards in Smart and White.

Most Wings have a player at the 1 or 2 who are worse defenders than them. However, Jaylen hasn't had that the past year with both White and Smart being significantly better defenders.

So, when you say "I would rather have his defense than CP3 or Curry", I agree with the caveat they aren't the same position. I prefer both Prime CP3 and 2022 Curry defense at their respective positions than Brown on the Wing, for example. The caveat here being Brown taking less primacy of the offense and returning to an All-NBA defender and he instantly vaults up to #2.

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