How many seasons, if any, was Reggie Miller a top 10 player?

SHAQ32 · Post #1 » by **SHAQ32** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:28 pm

Title

One_and_Done · Post #2 » by **One_and_Done** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:33 pm

None probably.

Dutchball97 · Post #3 » by **Dutchball97** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:38 pm

I think he's in contention in 94, 95, 98 and 2000. Not sure how many of them I'd actually have him making the top 10 though.

jojo4341 · Post #4 » by **jojo4341** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:45 pm

If we're going by MVP voting, he never was. The closest he's come was in 1998 and 2000 where he finished 16th and 13th, respectively.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1998.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2000.html

Subjectively, I could make a case for 1994:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1994.html

You could make a case of Miller being ahead of guys like:
GP
Shawn Kemp
Mark Price
and everyone T11 on this list

SilentA · Post #5 » by **SilentA** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:54 am

This is hard to say because of how much Reggie Miller hung his hat on improved playoff performance in the modern Jimmy Butler/Jamal Murray vein. The way this question is worded suggests regular season to me though.

iggymcfrack · Post #6 » by **iggymcfrack** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:12 am

He's top 5 in playoff BPM on deep runs in '94 and '95, those seasons are guarantees. In '98, he's top 10 in the regular season in BPM, mostly maintains his numbers in the playoffs on the team that stretches the Jordan Bulls to 7, and has a team best on-off of +11.5. That one seems like a slam dunk too. In the 2000 playoffs, he has a BPM that would have ranked 4th in the regular season and an on/off of +13.5 while every other starter on the team is negative and leads his team to the Finals where his game score was almost double Kobe's. Again, seems pretty hard to argue him as top 10.

He actually had really crazy numbers in the playoffs in 2001 too at age 35 and might have been able to show top 10 value there if he had a good enough team to make a run, but they lost in the first round so you can't give him too much credit there. So I'll say definitely 4 seasons where he was one of the 10 most accomplished players of the year.

MrLurker · Post #7 » by **MrLurker** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:40 am

He was a fantastic playoff scorer. A not so fantastic regular season scorer. A tricky one to be sure

Post #8 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:55 pm

MrLurker wrote:He was a fantastic playoff scorer. A not so fantastic regular season scorer. A tricky one to be sure

What do you mean "not so fantastic regular season scorer?"

Is that an evaluation strictly on scoring volume in the RS?

Colbinii · Post #9 » by **Colbinii** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:43 pm

MrLurker wrote:He was a fantastic playoff scorer. A not so fantastic regular season scorer. A tricky one to be sure

This player isn't a fantastic regular season scorer?

TS+ by season:

15th
2nd
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
5th
2nd
5th
2nd
3rd
4th
8th

11 straights seasons of finishing Top 5 in TS+. That alone screams fantastic to me.

Post #10 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:52 pm

Colbinii wrote:
MrLurker wrote:He was a fantastic playoff scorer. A not so fantastic regular season scorer. A tricky one to be sure

This player isn't a fantastic regular season scorer?

TS+ by season:

15th
2nd
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
5th
2nd
5th
2nd
3rd
4th
8th

11 straights seasons of finishing Top 5 in TS+. That alone screams fantastic to me.

Well, and add to that he was scoring at reasonable volume in the process.

Post #11 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 4:58 pm

So, at the moment I have him as a Top 5 player in the following seasons:

'91-92
'93-94
'94-95
'97-98
'99-00

This is most certainly including the playoffs as relevant to the conversation.

As for number of Top 10 seasons, that's not something that I record, but I can say that I'd expect that there would be more seasons where Miller would make that cut beyond the 5 listed.

Post #12 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:14 pm

tsherkin wrote:Well, and add to that he was scoring at reasonable volume in the process.

Yup, and if we go by TS Add, which factors in volume, here's his the 13-straight season run where he ranked in the Top 10 overall - and we can note always Top 3 among guard:

'89-90: 3rd (1st)
'90-91: 1st (1st)
'91-92: 1st (1st)
'92-93: 2nd (1st)
'93-94: 2nd (1st)
'94-95: 5th (3rd)
'95-96: 2nd (1st)
'96-97: 5th (3rd)
'97-98: 2nd (1st)
'98-99: 3rd (1st)
'99-00: 4th (1st)
'00-01: 8th (3rd)
'01-02: 4th (2nd)

Now I'll note that just because this factors in both efficiency & volume doesn't mean I'd use it as my ranking of best scorers - there are players who rank high by this who clearly don't seem able to scale up their volume. But of course, with Reggie, we know that he can scale it up just fine in the playoffs.

Post #13 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 5:26 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Well, and add to that he was scoring at reasonable volume in the process.

Yup, and if we go by TS Add, which factors in volume, here's his the 13-straight season run where he ranked in the Top 10 overall - and we can note always Top 3 among guard:

'89-90: 3rd (1st)
'90-91: 1st (1st)
'91-92: 1st (1st)
'92-93: 2nd (1st)
'93-94: 2nd (1st)
'94-95: 5th (3rd)
'95-96: 2nd (1st)
'96-97: 5th (3rd)
'97-98: 2nd (1st)
'98-99: 3rd (1st)
'99-00: 4th (1st)
'00-01: 8th (3rd)
'01-02: 4th (2nd)

Now I'll note that just because this factors in both efficiency & volume doesn't mean I'd use it as my ranking of best scorers - there are players who rank high by this who clearly don't seem able to scale up their volume. But of course, with Reggie, we know that he can scale it up just fine in the playoffs.

Indeed.

There is some wonder why he didn't shoulder a larger scoring role in the RS and if that didn't affect Indiana's standings at times, but he showed up in the playoffs and was just a demon, grinding away with high-efficiency scoring. Even as late as 2001, he dropped a 31 ppg series on Philly on 60.6% TS (+9.5% rTS relative to playoff average), and that was him at 35.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #14 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:10 pm

I'd say 90-00 off the top of my head. I get that there are some people out who aren't that high on him but at the end of the day there's a reason that the Pacers were top 8 in ORtg almost every year during that span and #1 twice and it starts with Reggie and how his style of play made things easier for teammates on top of the huge ts add he had every year.

SHAQ32 · Post #15 » by **SHAQ32** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:55 pm

SilentA wrote:The way this question is worded suggests regular season to me though.

Regular Season+playoffs

SHAQ32 · Post #16 » by **SHAQ32** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:57 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I get that there are some people out who aren't that high on him but at the end of the day there's a reason that the Pacers were top 8 in ORtg almost every year during that span and #1 twice and it starts with Reggie and how his style of play made things easier for teammates on top of the huge ts add he had every year.

I feel like it's more impressive as the Pacers were built more for defense than they were for offense

AEnigma · Post #17 » by **AEnigma** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:12 pm

I would say on average top ten every year 1990-2000, but it depends a bit on how you penalise for missed postseasons. I also probably have him outside the top five in every frame not specifically looking at playoff scoring (e.g. the greater than Malone argument).

Post #18 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:52 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:I get that there are some people out who aren't that high on him but at the end of the day there's a reason that the Pacers were top 8 in ORtg almost every year during that span and #1 twice and it starts with Reggie and how his style of play made things easier for teammates on top of the huge ts add he had every year.

I feel like it's more impressive as the Pacers were built more for defense than they were for offense

I'm not sure I'm comfortable saying the Pacers were defensively oriented in this time period.

Post #19 » by **tsherkin** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:56 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:I get that there are some people out who aren't that high on him but at the end of the day there's a reason that the Pacers were top 8 in ORtg almost every year during that span and #1 twice and it starts with Reggie and how his style of play made things easier for teammates on top of the huge ts add he had every year.

I feel like it's more impressive as the Pacers were built more for defense than they were for offense

I'm not sure I'm comfortable saying the Pacers were defensively oriented in this time period.

Yeah, they didn't have a decent rDRTG until 94, when Larry Brown took over.

90-93 (Dick Versace and Brian Hill)
+3.3, +4.2, +1.7, +2.1

94-97 (Larry Brown)

-2.1, -2.7, -0.4, -2.0

98-00 (Larry Bird)

-3.4, +2.2, -0.5,

01, 02 (Isiah Thomas)

-0.8, -0.7

SHAQ32 · Post #20 » by **SHAQ32** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 8:00 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
SHAQ32 wrote:I feel like it's more impressive as the Pacers were built more for defense than they were for offense

I'm not sure I'm comfortable saying the Pacers were defensively oriented in this time period.

Yeah, they didn't have a decent rDRTG until 94, when Larry Brown took over.

90-93 (Dick Versace and Brian Hill)
+3.3, +4.2, +1.7, +2.1

94-97 (Larry Brown)

-2.1, -2.7, -0.4, -2.0

98-00 (Larry Bird)

-3.4, +2.2, -0.5,

01, 02 (Isiah Thomas)

-0.8, -0.7

Yeah, I'm looking at 94-00 here, when Larry Brown, Derrick McKey, and Antonio Davis joined. They arguably had the best defensive frontcourt in the league, and along with foul trouble held Shaq in check in the 1994 first round.