Best offensive and defensive player at the same time?

[uberhikari]

I was listening to the Russillo podcast about the annual GM survey and what percentage of GM's would take Wembanyama to start a franchise. And I was wondering if Wembanyama had the potential to be both the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA.

Historically has this ever happened? Has there ever been a player in NBA history who was both the best offensive and defensive player at the same time?

Maybe '67 Wilt? Even though Russell was still in the league.

Maybe '94 Hakeem since Magic and MJ were both retired at that point. Although someone could question if Shaq was a better offensive player than Hakeem.

Maybe 13 LeBron? Howard had fallen off on defense because of his back injury and KD was still quite young.

[jojo4341]

You just mentioned MJ (1988)...that should be the obvious pick. After that, as you said, you could argue:

1994 Hakeem - Shaq and DRob led in PPG
1966 Wilt - debatable with Russell as blocks/steals weren't recorded

Recently, Giannis and Embiid got close. In short, MJ seems like the only clear-cut choice.

[AEnigma]

1974 Kareem is my only pick for that, although I would entertain a postseason specific argument for 1995 Hakeem. I think it is too tall an ask for a perimetre player to qualify as the absolute best defender, even with a postseason specific lens. 2016 Lebron comes closest in the sense I think you could conceivably argue he was second to Draymond in the postseason, but top outright, no, and that is specifically in a postseason with weaker competition among defensive bigs. It is a little more conceivable for bigs to go on such a valuable scoring streak that they qualify, but even then, 1974 Kareem has the benefit of playing in a league with declined offensive play from usual mainstays Oscar and West, and 1995 playoff Hakeem is still competing with Reggie, Penny, Shaq, KJ…

[AEnigma]

You just mentioned MJ (1988)...that should be the obvious pick. After that, as you said, you could argue:

1994 Hakeem - Shaq and DRob led in PPG
1966 Wilt - debatable with Russell as blocks/steals weren't recorded

Recently, Giannis and Embiid got close. In short, MJ seems like the only clear-cut choice.

Why, because he won DPoY? That makes him a better defender than 1988 Hakeem or Eaton, right.

The hilarious bit here is that even if we pretended bigs did not exist and therefore he could conceivably qualify for the defensive title, it would still be a moot point seeing as he was not even better offensively than Magic.

[jojo4341]

You just mentioned MJ (1988)...that should be the obvious pick. After that, as you said, you could argue:

1994 Hakeem - Shaq and DRob led in PPG
1966 Wilt - debatable with Russell as blocks/steals weren't recorded

Recently, Giannis and Embiid got close. In short, MJ seems like the only clear-cut choice.

Why, because he won DPoY? That makes him a better defender than 1988 Hakeem or Eaton, right.

The hilarious bit here is that even if we pretended bigs did not exist and therefore he could conceivably qualify for the defensive title, it would still be a moot point seeing as he was not even better offensively than Magic.

The OP asked if anyone was considered the best defensive and offensive player. MJ winning DPOY means at least "Officially" this was recognized. Doesn't mean I agree. I mean Pippin never won DPOY, but I consider him one of the best defenders of all time regardless of position. I was also a fan of Mark Eaton when basically all he did was play defense.

Magic is my favorite player of all time so I know about his offense. But we're now comparing apples or oranges. Do you take the scoring champion who also dishes out 6 apg or or Magic's 19/12? Is it really that ridiculous to think MJ could be the best offensive player? Forget 1988, how about 1989 when he was the de-facto PG and still was scoring champion? It's a subjective question and MJ is definitely a valid pick here.

[70sFan]

I think 1974 Kareem has the best case, simply because his best competition at defensive spot (Wilt, Thurmond) either retired or aged out. He still competed against capable defenders like Cowens or Hayes though.

Hakeem probably has a weak case in the mid-90s, but I don't think he was ever the best offensive player in the league. It's a reach in similar way to use Duncan or Giannis here - they are not realistic choices for the OPOY. I think LeBron is a similar case, only on defense -he was a quality anchor for a few if his best years, but I wouldn't put him at the top in any season.

Wilt is another fringe choice, but he had stacked competition with Russell/Thurmond on defense and Oscar/West on offense, so it's another no for me.

There is also Milan, I am not knowledgeable enough to rank him though.

[OhayoKD]

You just mentioned MJ (1988)...that should be the obvious pick. After that, as you said, you could argue:

1994 Hakeem - Shaq and DRob led in PPG
1966 Wilt - debatable with Russell as blocks/steals weren't recorded

Recently, Giannis and Embiid got close. In short, MJ seems like the only clear-cut choice.

Why, because he won DPoY? That makes him a better defender than 1988 Hakeem or Eaton, right.

The hilarious bit here is that even if we pretended bigs did not exist and therefore he could conceivably qualify for the defensive title, it would still be a moot point seeing as he was not even better offensively than Magic.

The OP asked if anyone was considered the best defensive and offensive player. MJ winning DPOY means at least "Officially" this was recognized. Doesn't mean I agree. I mean Pippin never won DPOY, but I consider him one of the best defenders of all time regardless of position. I was also a fan of Mark Eaton when basically all he did was play defense.

You claimed Mj was the "only clear-cut choice" and "should be the obvious pick". That seems a bit strong for a player who plays the least valuable defensive position(there's a treasure trove for that), and whose team would collapse to average/negative defensively until his teammates gained primacy in the back-half of 90(as Jordan's activity lessened) before anchoring a similarly strong defense without him for 2 seasons.

That said if you want to tie this to "official" voting, I'd say Jordan's pedestrian vote-share for the MVP shoots down the "best offensive" player bit.

how about 1989 when he was the de-facto PG and still was scoring champion? It's a subjective question and MJ is definitely a valid pick here.

You would not be referring to the stretch where they were worse than they were in 88 in the year their defense was average would you?

Let's say him demonstrating he wasn't nearly as effective of a helio proved he was the best offensive player. How do you justify the defensive bit?

Especially considering that Magic, a worse defender surely, ended up winning MVP according to the "official" voting you were citing earlier

[MacGill]

87-88 MJ led the league in scoring and won DPOY. You could certainly break down O & D further, but that's pretty dang impressive for a 2-guard, no?

We will see how Wem develops, but most need to understand how hard it actually is to actually accomplish this. Some can make a greater impact, or perceived greater impact based on their size and position, and others based on usage or touches received. I am excited for him but I think it is far too early to speculate this as he'll need to grow his game.

Giannis is someone who I think may be able to lock this down over the next few years if he can remain healthy! We will see.

[OhayoKD]

87-88 MJ led the league in scoring and won DPOY. You could certainly break down O & D further, but that's pretty dang impressive for a 2-guard, no?

Yes. But the question does not an imply a "for a 2-guard" curve. And fwiw, at that point in the league, the nba almost always handed the DPOY to a guard as steals and blocks + how many points did opposing teams score(no-pace adjustment) was more or less how defensive value was derived.

[OhayoKD]

1974 Kareem is my only pick for that, although I would entertain a postseason specific argument for 1995 Hakeem. I think it is too tall an ask for a perimetre player to qualify as the absolute best defender, even with a postseason specific lens. 2016 Lebron comes closest in the sense I think you could conceivably argue he was second to Draymond in the postseason, but top outright, no, and that is specifically in a postseason with weaker competition among defensive bigs. It is a little more conceivable for peaks to go on such a valuable scoring streak that they qualify, but even then, 1974 Kareem has the benefit of playing in a league with declined offensive play from usual mainstays Oscar and West, and 1995 playoff Hakeem is still competing with Reggie, Penny, Shaq, KJ…

Was there a clearly better offensive player than Duncan in 2003? I've also heard the case made for Garnett in 2004

[70sFan]

1974 Kareem is my only pick for that, although I would entertain a postseason specific argument for 1995 Hakeem. I think it is too tall an ask for a perimetre player to qualify as the absolute best defender, even with a postseason specific lens. 2016 Lebron comes closest in the sense I think you could conceivably argue he was second to Draymond in the postseason, but top outright, no, and that is specifically in a postseason with weaker competition among defensive bigs. It is a little more conceivable for peaks to go on such a valuable scoring streak that they qualify, but even then, 1974 Kareem has the benefit of playing in a league with declined offensive play from usual mainstays Oscar and West, and 1995 playoff Hakeem is still competing with Reggie, Penny, Shaq, KJ…

Was there a clearly better offensive player than Duncan in 2003? I've also heard the case made for Garnett in 2004

I think Shaq was clearly better offensively than Duncan. Kobe and Tmac probably as well.

[OhayoKD]

1974 Kareem is my only pick for that, although I would entertain a postseason specific argument for 1995 Hakeem. I think it is too tall an ask for a perimetre player to qualify as the absolute best defender, even with a postseason specific lens. 2016 Lebron comes closest in the sense I think you could conceivably argue he was second to Draymond in the postseason, but top outright, no, and that is specifically in a postseason with weaker competition among defensive bigs. It is a little more conceivable for peaks to go on such a valuable scoring streak that they qualify, but even then, 1974 Kareem has the benefit of playing in a league with declined offensive play from usual mainstays Oscar and West, and 1995 playoff Hakeem is still competing with Reggie, Penny, Shaq, KJ…

Was there a clearly better offensive player than Duncan in 2003? I've also heard the case made for Garnett in 2004

I think Shaq was clearly better offensively than Duncan. Kobe and Tmac probably as well.

I forgot about grady. But yeah, maybe KG has a better case just thanks to competition.

[Jaivl]

Kareem is the only one with a decent case.

Think KG has an outside shot in 2004 cause it was an extremely weak year for offensive stars.

[penbeast0]

I think you could make a case for Mikan, not every year but at least a couple of times.

[AEnigma]

The OP asked if anyone was considered the best defensive and offensive player.

Okay, quote where they said “considered”.

[Djoker]

Jordan and Lebron should not be getting any mentions here.

Apart from 1974 Kareem and 1994 Hakeem that were mentioned, I think 1980 Kareem also fits the bill. Maybe a few others I'd consider like 1967 Wilt, and 2004 Garnett but push comes to shove I don't think Wilt or KG were the best on offense. Mikan was pre-shot clock and I don't know enough about him.

[MacGill]

87-88 MJ led the league in scoring and won DPOY. You could certainly break down O & D further, but that's pretty dang impressive for a 2-guard, no?

Yes. But the question does not an imply a "for a 2-guard" curve. And fwiw, at that point in the league, the nba almost always handed the DPOY to a guard as steals and blocks + how many points did opposing teams score(no-pace adjustment) was more or less how defensive value was derived.

I'm not sure why you need to overcomplicate what I stated. I never indicated that a 2-guards impact was that of a center or wing, but it's still pretty incredible that a fourth year player won in both. It sure is great to use hindsight and look back at the league but in that moment in time it was a huge deal, and still is to me.

[OhayoKD]

87-88 MJ led the league in scoring and won DPOY. You could certainly break down O & D further, but that's pretty dang impressive for a 2-guard, no?

Yes. But the question does not an imply a "for a 2-guard" curve. And fwiw, at that point in the league, the nba almost always handed the DPOY to a guard as steals and blocks + how many points did opposing teams score(no-pace adjustment) was more or less how defensive value was derived.

I'm not sure why you need to overcomplicate what I stated. I never indicated that a 2-guards impact was that of a center or wing, but it's still pretty incredible that a fourth year player won in both. It sure is great to use hindsight and look back at the league but in that moment in time it was a huge deal, and still is to me.

I read it as a reply to my comment and/or an answer to the op. If that was not the intent then my bad

Nonetheless "for a two-guard" doesn't really carry the same effect given almost every dpoy until that point had been a guard

[tsherkin]

Magic is my favorite player of all time so I know about his offense. But we're now comparing apples or oranges. Do you take the scoring champion who also dishes out 6 apg or or Magic's 19/12? Is it really that ridiculous to think MJ could be the best offensive player? Forget 1988, how about 1989 when he was the de-facto PG and still was scoring champion? It's a subjective question and MJ is definitely a valid pick here.

It was 19.6, so closer to 20, and it was also at 108 TS+ (60.2%, +6.4% rTS).

However, that was a wild-ass BS season from Jordan. He shot 53.5% from the field, and scored 35 ppg at 60.3% TS. Scoring 75% more points per game at slightly higher efficiency was pretty bad-ass that year, yeah. That kicked off his 4-year peak and was absolutely insane. No harm in wanting to choose Jordan for that one. He was an absolute monster.

[JLei]

2012 Lebron is in the argument I think and 2013 Lebron.

Did lead the league in both OBPM and DBPM and did win MVP. He was certainly up there offensively and defensively had the best DBPM of all the DPOY candidates in 2012.

In 2013 he finished 2nd to Marc Gasol in DPOY (who himself did not make the first team all defense) and was the best offensive player. This was also when the internal tracking data in the NBA showed he was probably the best defender at mimicing perfect defensive help (the Raptors Ghosts model in the Zach Lowe article).

I think maxed out effort Lebron in a sense was the best in those years and was probably pretty close to clear cut offensive best. His defensive impact would max out a crazy level but he obviously saved energy for offense. But him doing stuff like Game 6 and 7 of the NBA Finals in 2013 (guarding Tony Parker/ Manu, switching everywhere and blocking Duncan and then being the best offensive player) I felt he was the best O/D player in the league.