All Time Game-question

[pipfan]

OK, take all players at their peak-any era you want

I get first choice of 2 guys for my team, and-of course-take MJ/LBJ

The other guy can take the next 10 picks

Do I still win?

Let's say the other guy takes
Magic/Curry
Kobe/Wade, West or Big O?
Bird/KD
Duncan/KG
KAJ/Shaq

With MJ/LBJ do I still win? I think I would, since those 2 are SO great and would be
Give me West/Drexler/Pippen/DRob/Wilt/Dirk/Kidd or CP3 or whatever

Would the dominance of LBJ/MJ overcome the greatness of the rest of the top players?

[Jaivl]

You get crushed on depth. Kidd/Drexler is straight up ugly on an ATG team.

[uberhikari]

I start with LBJ and MJ.

Let's use the GM Top 100 currently ongoing and the GM Peaks Project to make the best possible opposing team with the next 10 picks. Whenever two players are reasonably close, I'll side with the player who ranked higher in the Peaks Project.

Curry (2017)/Magic (1987)
Kobe (2008)/West (1966)
Bird (1986)/Durant (2017)
Garnett (2004)/Duncan (2003)
Shaq (2000)/Kareem (1977)

This is a great team but it's offensively slanted because the defense isn't that great.

Now I fill out my LBJ/MJ roster.

Big O (1964)/Nash (2007)
MJ (1991)/Wade (2009)
LeBron (2016)/Kawhi (2017)
Dirk (2011)/Giannis (2021)
Hakeem (1993)/Wilt (1967)

At first glance, I thought the LBJ/MJ team was at a serious disadvantage but looking at these rosters, I don't see why I should pick the non-LBJ/MJ team.

The LBJ/MJ has pretty good spacing in the starting lineup and a pretty good balance between offense and defense.

[uberhikari]

You get crushed on depth. Kidd/Drexler is straight up ugly on an ATG team.

I thought he was just using players like Kidd/Drexler as hypotheticals. That team obviously loses. If you start with LBJ/MJ, then the other person gets the next 10 picks, and LBJ/MJ team gets the next 10 picks, then assuming you draft correctly, the LBJ/MJ team should probably win.

[penbeast0]

IF I take the next 10, I grab all of Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan plus guys to fill out the other slots (Magic/Curry/Bird/West/Oscar, etc.) and maybe even Mikan and let you try to win with Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone at center.

[SNPA]

IF I take the next 10, I grab all of Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan plus guys to fill out the other slots (Magic/Curry/Bird/West/Oscar, etc.) and maybe even Mikan and let you try to win with Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone at center.

Exactly. Or go the opposite and put it in this era and grab all the shooters (and monster rebounders) and just chuck threes since it’s weakness of an MJ/LBJ pairing.

[uberhikari]

IF I take the next 10, I grab all of Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan plus guys to fill out the other slots (Magic/Curry/Bird/West/Oscar, etc.) and maybe even Mikan and let you try to win with Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone at center.

You only have 10 picks. You mentioned exactly 10 players in your post, so assuming you take all those players that still leaves: Kareem, Dirk, Kobe, Garnett, Walton, Giannis, Jokic, Robinson, Kawhi, Durant, CP3, Nash, Davis.

Imagine this lineup:

LeBron/CP3
MJ/Kobe
Durant/Kawhi
Garnett/Dirk
Kareem/Walton

And for some inexplicable reason you have 4 Cs, 3 PGs, 1 SF, and 1 PF. Are you really gonna run a lineup of:

Curry/Magic
West/Oscar
Bird/Russell
Duncan/Wilt
Shaq/Hakeem

Your starting lineup is coherent but the bench makes no sense.

[OhayoKD]

I think anyone picking lbj/mj is massively overrating lbj/mj

[penbeast0]

IF I take the next 10, I grab all of Wilt/Russell/Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan plus guys to fill out the other slots (Magic/Curry/Bird/West/Oscar, etc.) and maybe even Mikan and let you try to win with Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone at center.

You only have 10 picks. You mentioned exactly 10 players in your post, so assuming you take all those players that still leaves: Kareem, Dirk, Kobe, Garnett, Walton, Giannis, Jokic, Robinson, Kawhi, Durant, CP3, Nash, Davis.

Imagine this lineup:

LeBron/CP3
MJ/Kobe
Durant/Kawhi
Garnett/Dirk
Kareem/Walton

And for some inexplicable reason you have 4 Cs, 3 PGs, 1 SF, and 1 PF. Are you really gonna run a lineup of:

Curry/Magic
West/Oscar
Bird/Russell
Duncan/Wilt
Shaq/Hakeem

Your starting lineup is coherent but the bench makes no sense.

The object was to strip away all the top centers leaving MJ and LeBron without a great two way rim protector while having enough players left for a solid 8 man rotation (both Magic and Oscar played SFs defensively quite often). Kareem and DRob I just forgot and adding them makes too many centers to have a rotation. Especially if we ignore Walton and Kawhi's injury probability, it looks like what I was trying to do was just impossible.

[SilentA]

Close call. But I voted others.

MJ and Lebron are up there as GOAT candidates for a reason, and there are so many top tier bigs that you can survive ceding 2 drafts at the center position. But the PG, SF, and PF positions are a different story. There's a clear dropoff after KG/Duncan and Curry/Magic, and while Lebron wins SF, Bird/KD are close behind and also can space the floor. With volume 3 point shooting being relatively modern, the pool of "all-time" candidates who can space the floor well is pretty thin, creating more limitations. Until we get through a couple more decades of normalized 3 point shooting, players who can space the floor well on the ATG list will continue to be rare.

Others (W)
Curry/Magic
Kobe/Reggie Miller
Bird/Durant
KG/Duncan
Kareem/Hakeem

MJ/LBJ (L in triple overtime)
Jerry West/Stockton
MJ/DWade
Lebron/Paul Pierce
Dirk/Karl Malone
Bill Russell/Shaq

[CodeBreaker]

MJ and LeBron easily.

That tandem would destroy any video game. MJ's insane scoring plus LeBron's playmaking and versatility are unparalleled. Add their uber athleticism then it's pretty much game over.

[MyUniBroDavis]

OK, take all players at their peak-any era you want

I get first choice of 2 guys for my team, and-of course-take MJ/LBJ

The other guy can take the next 10 picks

Do I still win?

Let's say the other guy takes
Magic/Curry
Kobe/Wade, West or Big O?
Bird/KD
Duncan/KG
KAJ/Shaq

With MJ/LBJ do I still win? I think I would, since those 2 are SO great and would be
Give me West/Drexler/Pippen/DRob/Wilt/Dirk/Kidd or CP3 or whatever

Would the dominance of LBJ/MJ overcome the greatness of the rest of the top players?

Oh my god lmao no you get destroyed, assuming the other guy picks well

[AEnigma]

Guaranteed a top tier centre regardless.

Can play Lebron at power forward, so not a massive rotational disadvantage there (say the other team does Hikari’s suggested forward selections, you can still pull Giannis, Davis, Dirk, Malone… potentially toy with Hakeem or Russell… Draymond if you want to get cute about scoring load and fit…).

Staying with that assumed forward distribution, you still have the opportunity to take Kawhi and George and other similar level players (e.g. McGrady) on the wings, or guys like Pippen or Manu or Eddie Jones if you just want some versatile fifth options on rosters where you decide to play big and eschew any smaller guards.

Assuming you do want guards, you can of course choose from Paul/Frazier/Nash/Oscar/Wade…

Yeah, I feel pretty comfortable with Jordan/Lebron here for a peaks hypothetical.

[rk2023]

OK, take all players at their peak-any era you want

I get first choice of 2 guys for my team, and-of course-take MJ/LBJ

The other guy can take the next 10 picks

Do I still win?

Let's say the other guy takes
Magic/Curry
Kobe/Wade, West or Big O?
Bird/KD
Duncan/KG
KAJ/Shaq

With MJ/LBJ do I still win? I think I would, since those 2 are SO great and would be
Give me West/Drexler/Pippen/DRob/Wilt/Dirk/Kidd or CP3 or whatever

Would the dominance of LBJ/MJ overcome the greatness of the rest of the top players?

I'm unsure if I would fill out the rest of a hypothetical Jordan & Bron team with those players in particular - but even assuming all of those opposing players are selected.. a 10 man rotation could be built in order to compete with the all-time team of 10 highlighted earlier.

West - Oscar (or Wade, any combo of 2 out of the 3 names you mentioned at first works - with West fitting the best out of the three)
Jordan - Kawhi
Bron - George
Hakeem - Davis
Russell - Walton

I certainly see this team, at minimum, treading water in comparison to the 10 man lineup you highlighted in the OP

[ice9]

I think I go MJ/LeBron here. Move LeBron to point where he matches up against Magic, negating the mismatches Magic can cause. If talking peaks, there might be more forward depth available than pg depth, too.

Centers are a relative push, too many greats available.

Dirk provides needed spacing and we know is perfectly capable of matching up with KG and Timmy.

I think the MJ/LeBron team ends up better defensively on the perimeter, and probably overall.


Magic/Curry
Kobe/Wade
Bird/KD
Duncan/KG
KAJ/Shaq

Vs

LeBron/West
MJ/Oscar
Kawhi/Erving
Dirk/Giannis
Wilt/Hakeem

Sent from my SM-G996U1 using Tapatalk

[penbeast0]

Close call. But I voted others.

MJ and Lebron are up there as GOAT candidates for a reason, and there are so many top tier bigs that you can survive ceding 2 drafts at the center position. But the PG, SF, and PF positions are a different story. There's a clear dropoff after KG/Duncan and Curry/Magic, and while Lebron wins SF, Bird/KD are close behind and also can space the floor. With volume 3 point shooting being relatively modern, the pool of "all-time" candidates who can space the floor well is pretty thin, creating more limitations. Until we get through a couple more decades of normalized 3 point shooting, players who can space the floor well on the ATG list will continue to be rare.

Others (W)
Curry/Magic
Kobe/Reggie Miller
Bird/Durant
KG/Duncan
Kareem/Hakeem

MJ/LBJ (L in triple overtime)
Jerry West/Stockton
MJ/DWade
Lebron/Paul Pierce
Dirk/Karl Malone
Bill Russell/Shaq

If I'm going all time for the modern game, Bird plays almost all his minutes at PF backing up Garnett and Duncan probably mainly at center if I choose him. Durant faces LeBron with someone like Kawhi backing him up (since Kawhi will be minutes limited de factor anyway). At guard I have Curry, Magic, and West with a 4th guard (Oscar, Wade, Moncrief, etc.). Center is as always the toughest, since I have so much scoring, I probably take Russell backed by Duncan (slightly over Hakeem) as there is less need for Kareem or Wilt's scoring whereas Russell's mobility, shotblocking, and rebounding are more valuable and his passing is at least passable).

Magic/Oscar
West/Curry
Durant/Kawhi
Garnett/Bird
Russell/Duncan

My big weakness is vs. LeBron at SF since Durant/Kawhi is the least impressive combination on the team but it is the only one (other than Curry) to play the modern 3 point spamming game where everyone else scales up their 3 point shooting with some degree of uncertainty, even Bird and West. I think LeBron is the biggest difference maker in a modern team with his positional versatility, I think Jordan is significantly less advantageous in a situation where you have high ego 1st options everywhere.

[homecourtloss]

There’s just too much talent for both teams to choose from—if you play 100 games, I can see the each side winning 50 times each.

[Colbinii]

Yeah, I pick LeBron and MJ.

I have #12-#20 peaks closer to #3-#11 than LeBron/MJ to #3-#11.

More importantly, you are guaranteed the two best wings.

[DraymondGold]

Cool question! Definitely the other team, whether you go with the teams in the OP or whether you get to draft your own version of each team. Quoting myself here:

First hot take: I'm not taking both LeBron and Jordan on the same team. (though this may be more of a lukewarm take on this board).

Spoiler:

I have LeBron and Jordan as my two GOAT peaks, and two GOAT tier players. However, I'm not sure they'd maximize their impact on the same team.

What team offensive styles do each prefer?
LeBron maximizes his offensive value in more of a modern, drive and kick, spread pick and roll style offense. Costars that maximize LeBron's individual impact are strong 3 point shooters, particularly stretch big men in more small ball style lineups, like Kevin Love and AD, although LeBron also works well with off-ball shooters like Ray Allen and Kyle Korver. Jordan's value is maximized in a more motion style offense. In the 90s, this was realized with the triangle, although one could imagine Jordan actualizing in a Van Breda Kolff style Princeton offense in the 60s, or in a more pace-and-space motion offense of the 10s Spurs/Warriors/Heat. These are two different styles of team offenses. And these two offensive styles may conflict; forcing one or both players to compromise on their optimal play style may produce diminishing returns in their value due to poor fit.

You might point other limitations in their compatibility. For instance
-There's only one ball:
LeBron works best with the ball in his hands. The term "LeBron ball" became popular for a reason. Although LeBron did perform well in a "your turn, my turn" offense (e.g. with Wade/Kyrie), occasionally cutting off ball (especially with the heat), and did expand his shooting range with age (particularly on the left side)... these were developed more to expand his counters and versatility. They did not become his preferred play style. So what does LeBron do when Jordan has the ball? Where does he position himself, and how does he continue to threaten the defense? The team would certainly have options... but taking the ball out of LeBron's hands would likely produce diminishing returns for LeBron's value.
Jordan gets more value off-ball than LeBron. He had an array of moves -- postups, curls, back picks, etc. -- to get into scoring position off the ball. However, his kind of off-ball motion isn't the same kind of off-ball value that LeBron prefers (e.g. spacing, big-man screening at the perimeter, or coming around off-ball screens around the 3 point line to shoot, etc.). This leads us to another concern...

-How is the spacing and shooting?
Neither LeBron or Jordan are great 3 point shooters, even moreso as perimeter players. A team with these two is likely to have sub-optimal shooting, particularly if we're going to be picking a center from one of the usual all-time great bigs (none of whom are great 3 point shooters). The 3 point revolution made it unavoidably clear that spacing and shooting are practically paramount to good offense. This becomes an even bigger issue when we consider both LeBron and Jordan (and likely whatever center we choose) are at their best when pressuring the rim. This is just the kind of offense that would benefit from having a spaced out paint.

Now, obviously a team with LeBron and Jordan would still be great. They'd probably win the championship in basically any actual NBA season. They'd be fantastic defensively, and they'd still be fantastic offensively. But I think I can get a better fit by just choosing one of them.

Plus it's just dang boring and cliche. Too many people pick their all time 5 to be the standard positional GOATs: Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem. There's plenty of all-time greats who fit next to each other. I'd much rather sacrifice just a tiny bit of GOATness to get to have a significantly more interesting discussion and a team with better fit. For these reasons, I won't be choosing both LeBron and Jordan.

What about the rest of the roster? Well if we go by the OP roster...
In the OP Roster, Drexler and Kidd are *significant* steps down from #3–#11, and they don't fit well without any sort of distance shooting. Let's say the #3–11 take West > Oscar (as they should). That leaves the MJ/LBJ team starting a lineup with... Oscar, Jordan, LBJ, Dirk, Wilt? So... 4/5 suboptimal 3 point shooters to play as floor spacers for LeBron's drive and kick game? And Drexler/Pippen/Kidd coming off the bench? Or let's say you try to run more of a motion/triangle offense around Jordan, and you have LeBron doing entry passes from the perimeter or playing as a passing big from near the elbow.... None of these options get the most out of any of the MJ/LBJ players. Even if the value of MJ/LBJ >> the other players, the MJ/LBJ fit is << #3–#11. And there's only two of MJ/LBJ, so that's 8 other players on the roster where #3–#11 have the advantage.

Compare that to the OP #3–11 roster, which can put out *fantastic* modern spaced lineups in Curry, Kobe/West, Bird, KG, and either a rim threat in KAJ/Shaq/Duncan and good rim protection too. You have great defensive bigs to protect the rim, and some good perimeter defense in West/Wade/Kobe. Plus against the lack of spaced out lineups on the MJ/LBJ team, you can pack the paint, which puts Bird closer in help position where he excels, and puts Magic/Curry closer in help position with less cost if they're blown past on the perimeter.

If we get to choose both rosters...
Then we can likely improve both teams, which likely isn't enough for MJ/LBJ. penbeast0's idea to take all the centers is probably for naught (too many good centers), but you can absolutely do a similar strategy where you aggressively draft all the better shooters. And you could absolutely get all the better (i.e. valuable and fitting) forwards left in Bird, Durant, Kawhi, KG, maybe Duncan if you call him a forward. Who do the MJ/LBJ team draft? Erving, another non spacer to go with a non spacing big for a total of at least 4+ non-ideal 3 point shooters in the starting lineup? Certainly not Elgin Baylor. Perhaps Pippen for the defense? But again we'd lack the shooting, and like Erving, getting the most out of Pippen on offense (e.g. on ball facilitator) would require putting LeBron off ball. Or perhaps go down to Havlicek or Rick Barry? The drop off from LBJ to Bird is *absolutely* smaller than the drop off from Bird to those guys. Or at the power forward position, I would absolutely take Garnett over whoever's left for the MJ/LBJ team. Dirk seems like the necessary pick for shooting, or perhaps 2020 AD if you're okay affording AD hot shooting. But both are steps down (Dirk defensively, AD defensively vs KG and some people wouldn't afford him bubble-level shooting luck). Who else? With Barkley/Giannis, you're stuck with another non shooter, one of whom is poor defensively, the other is frequently used on ball. At the guard position? With Oscar/CP3/Kidd, you get on-ball duplication with LeBron, or you're stuck with Wade/Kobe for Top 25 peaks, but they clash with Jordan.

The #3–#11 team could trot out a starting lineup like Curry / West / two of Kawhi or Bird or KG / Wilt (or your top 5 center of choice), and get actual floor spacing, fantastic passing, fantastic defense both in the perimeter and in the paint. And you'd have a far better bench than whatever's left for the MJ/LBJ team, with someone like Magic, Durant, another Top 5 center of choice, and whoever's left from Kawhi/Bird/KG coming off the bench. And you could still get another guard of your choice too! Who does that leave for the MJ/LBJ team? Who do they have that's actually on this level who actually fit well for your other guards and wings?

Really the only compelling argument is if you force the #3–#11 roster to take pipfan's suggested roster (and have them make the mistake of taking Oscar over West), then allow the MJ/LBJ roster to redraft with West and with smarter fitting choices (e.g. Drexler -> Kawhi). Or change the rules to an older ruleset (e.g. illegal defense rules or pre-3 point shooting line) to get more spacing out of the non-shooters. The latter change seems fine. The first changes seem a bit slanted against #3–#11. But perhaps some combination of these would make the debate more interesting.

[MacGill]

MJ/LBJ would not be a good fit in my opinion. Wayyyyyyy to many other ATG's to handle that combo and create equal mismatch opportunities.